But the developers of behind Palemoon also did the same they have said being a violation before: Now there is no insight within development, just snapshots at a given time - which in fact is the reason of serious problems and notes within here.

Good point. I wonder if their behavior in this regard is worse than that of RedHat in their obfuscated releasing of RHEL binaries in order to try and thwart the efforts of Oracle and others from copying their packages. I'm thinking RedHat's behavior is probably worse, but I'm not well-read enough to know for sure.

Well, interesting insights from the palemoon-forum, nothing secret. But well? Speaking right for the authors - or better demonstrate their perspectives:

(...) Being allowed to use source code written by others is a privilege, not a right. (...)

(Source: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … 60#p220560)

This is the first time I've taken to reading any of the arguments on palemoon's forums, but I did read through moonchild's response that you linked to here. If he's correct when he says

then that is a serious violation, and the palemoon devs may be in the right for denying that developer access to their work.

I have bad feeling about this. PM devs don't care anymore as they're just incompetent and rude.

Yes, well if its a problem, otter browser is available and we can implement features like a per application script blocker or w/e directly into it.

(Source: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … 60#p220560)

(Source: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … 59#p220759)

Especially the second one makes me really sad, but the first is also not the nicest one. Do we really speak about technical emancipation and respect? And please: For sure I care with respect for the rights of authors, but treating the users and different forks the same is also caring.
Besides: I have removed the harsh wording from the second quote as I won't transport this language and wording right here and please keep it that way! Besides that there are for sure other insights within the first posting to be shared - otherwise it would be unfair and incorrect from myself. But the sentence itself leaves questions and in the end makes other statements earlier strange looking as the so-called consequences are more or less for all forks ahead, the UXP-project driven away from transparent insights.

midori is a candidate for being removed sooner or later (points above in one of the earlier postings). Perhaps it is a way to work more onto otter-browser? Will look into the point about gst-libav also when the others are finished right away.

Thanks for the UXP-link!

No worries, btw,  the package integration thread  has one new addition of request, an extremely simple one, I might add.

Thanks for the UXP-link!

In the end: I have absolutely the same perspective as you, zapper.
But I'm also oriented onto ... when I can't make it work or only with other serious problems, I am more onto to protect what is there and leave the rest as it is completely beyond repair. Not only technical, also social. Does not mean everyone else here has not that goal. Only want to write this clearly down here so we can all preserve what is here and head towards better. Perhaps even to create others throughout Mediagoblin (without NodeJS) and Libretube - thanks to heckyel for both. Peertube is no help and well the rest? Not changing that soon, but for sure: Not giving up!

Besides: netsurf is coming with libreoffice in one of the next commits for being onto the build-server. Running here the first local tests!

I have two things of good news I just learned,

1:  https://github.com/RealityRipple/UXP

2:  otter browser can play videos, you just need gst-libav

Apparently, I thought it didnt matter... also, last time I checked, I couldn't download it a while back...

My point being, it no longer matters about epiphany and earlier, I tried midori which... is a crapfest  due to how easily ads enter it...

Now comes a bit of bad news, I think?

I don't really know why, but otter browser won't go on Hyperbola for me, I am not sure if this behavior happens for other people, but yeah,  its a pain in the ass for me anyways.  Something about expired certificates... Weird stuff like that.

But for some reason, youtube doesn't have this problem... which is very odd indeed.

Besides: netsurf is coming with libreoffice in one of the next commits for being onto the build-server. Running here the first local tests!

You could possibly look into netsurf, @throgh. Very minimal, written all in C, independently developed browser engine, GPL2 licensed, doesn't try to meet all the modern web standards but still renders most un-bloated pages well. And has built-in ad blocking and seems relatively private and secure, since javascript largely does not work in it.

I've been talking to @zapper about netsurf the past few days as a possibility for Hyperbola. I'm a Hyperbola newbie, just trying it for the first time this week. @zapper's been trying to get me to try Hyperbola for quite a long while now, well over a year I think. I'm really enjoying your distro a great deal. I did not know it was so light and fast, it's very impressive. I thought Void was possibly the lightweight champ, but Hyperbola undercuts Void's memory usage by probably 20% or more.

Just wait until runit actually becomes completely functional, then it will really be fast and low memory.

Also just so that I can respond to Throgh as well,  I still think, if dbus can be disabled in Epiphany, it should be included. Also, not all videos are played on invidious or youtube.

But yeah, if that can't be done, then it is what it is.

I hear what you are saying, Throgh, but, and this is a big one, some users will want a decent web browser that will do stuff like uxp did. 

That being said, a fork would most definitely be the best option at this point.  Cherry picking code from to and fro is the way to fix the issues with epiphany and update it.

Also, those dependencies you mention,  I don't think they are nearly as bad as meson...

If dbus can be removed as a dependency, I think the Hyperbola team should reconsider. 

That's the biggest issue I have with it currently.   IF that works, then fork away.

And if things get worse over time, oh well...

My point is, no decent alternative to firefox, palemoon, basilisk might end up doing real harm to Hyperbola. 

Also, if for some reason it starts to become unusable, at least Hyperbola can say it tried its darn best. 

Long story short, I cannot agree with you. I don't care about github or gitlab for the most part, but I do care about watching videos wherever I feel like. 

My point, wait and see what develops.  And if dbus is unmovable aka, cannot be removed... keep epiphany excluded, its that simple.

Also, by your argument, why include libreoffice?

That is hellishly more bloated.  400mb for that package alone vs a package that's like less than 15mb,

Small edit btw,  400 mb unpacked vs 12.5 unpacked as far as I can see. That's insane the difference...

To watch videos there is a video-player, not a browser. But I don't have any problem with disagreement.
That's absolutely okay because everyone is free to do on other levels and points. Including libreoffice is from the other perspective way more harmless: Bringing some more libraries now so we can also pack scribus easier and when the big one (libreoffice) is getting out of hand or possibility for inclusion: It can be removed very easy. On the other hand the mentioned browser is no guarantee it stays on that part of its dependencies and future versions needs more. Not even counting the size itself, not even counting the counting the number of dependencies first: Per definition a webbrowser is a toolset for rendering description-files and display content, main text and some graphics. The "web" is developing every day, with new so-called standards and new ways people see blinking things. But at a cost of performance and security itself. Github or Gitlab is in this perspective relevant, because many projects are hosted there: Not having any kind of access because you don't have an electron-based browser (a very rude example, but not impossible) result in serious damage for creating patches for example.

My points here: libreoffice is executed local and fixed version. Yes, absolutely bloated in size and dependencies for sure, but under some control. Any webbrowser itself? Well, depends in general, but a webbrowser has relevant points not only being in relation towards local execution. You don't have the corresponding version? The corresponding framework included? Well, you are out. And this won't hurt Hyperbola only, more or less the on-going search hurt everyone. For sure my point is very dark and sinister from the base on, excluding even newer browsers is just my personal handling I'd like to do at one point only for myself, because as I've said "modern internet" is beyond repair. As alternative I'd see something like fair-viewer for searching and viewing videos for example, not the webbrowser itself any longer when the corresponding website / (so-called) platform has left the "building" of reasonable demands long ago, yes YouTube: Talking about you especially, but not only.

You are correct that there is need for some alternative about web-browsing. But designing a complete new alternative is impossible for all the included parts and using the ones existing now becomes more and more of a problem for free culture, soft- and hardware.

Hey, welcome to and in the forum. Thanks for netsurf: Was on the radar about some months ago, but has driven off for other packages then. Good to have that again remembered, so we are looking into that for sure. Thanks for the feedback on memory-usage. It is good to read that this works fine.

I've been talking to @zapper about netsurf the past few days as a possibility for Hyperbola. I'm a Hyperbola newbie, just trying it for the first time this week. @zapper's been trying to get me to try Hyperbola for quite a long while now, well over a year I think. I'm really enjoying your distro a great deal. I did not know it was so light and fast, it's very impressive. I thought Void was possibly the lightweight champ, but Hyperbola undercuts Void's memory usage by probably 20% or more.

That being said, a fork would most definitely be the best option at this point.  Cherry picking code from to and fro is the way to fix the issues with epiphany and update it.

Also, those dependencies you mention,  I don't think they are nearly as bad as meson...

If dbus can be removed as a dependency, I think the Hyperbola team should reconsider. 

That's the biggest issue I have with it currently.   IF that works, then fork away.

And if things get worse over time, oh well...

My point is, no decent alternative to firefox, palemoon, basilisk might end up doing real harm to Hyperbola. 

Also, if for some reason it starts to become unusable, at least Hyperbola can say it tried its darn best. 

Long story short, I cannot agree with you. I don't care about github or gitlab for the most part, but I do care about watching videos wherever I feel like. 

My point, wait and see what develops.  And if dbus is unmovable aka, cannot be removed... keep epiphany excluded, its that simple.

Also, by your argument, why include libreoffice?

That is hellishly more bloated.  400mb for that package alone vs a package that's like less than 15mb,

Small edit btw,  400 mb unpacked vs 12.5 unpacked as far as I can see. That's insane the difference...