Hmm, no: Nothing was moved or removed from any threads here in the forums ever since. Only doubled postings deleted on the wish of creators. Everything else stands like it was. Perhaps you have read elsewhere? But interesting to read about that device: I personally have never heard from that until today. Nevertheless: Perhaps someone has written here about that device (without mentioning the name), but in another topic. A wide search brought no result.

But hey: We won't delete something when it is not against something democratic or harassing others. And for sure protecting the privacy of users is one of our values here. Just to underline for everyone reading: We will for sure delete hatred and harassment as they have no place here (please read therefore our Social Contract Point 10). Criticism can be made without insults, hatred, harassment or something else like called "trolling" (meanful for provocation). No need for that here, not meant for attendees on this thread, more for all readers (especially when I talk about "democratic"). Therefore the warning: Dear anonymous readers, don't think "freedom of speech" is "freedom of responsibility" here. Makes me sad, but in those times? Needed to mention more than once and not meant to you, zapper. People react sometimes very strange when reading keywords. Happens to all of us, so I used that point to mention our clear stance!

It was kind of late, so I probably got mixed up and thought this was the newest message you sent to me.
https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic … 1600#p1600

xD

But hey: We won't delete something when it is not against something democratic or harassing others. And for sure protecting the privacy of users is one of our values here. Just to underline for everyone reading: We will for sure delete hatred and harassment as they have no place here (please read therefore our Social Contract Point 10). Criticism can be made without insults, hatred, harassment or something else like called "trolling" (meanful for provocation). No need for that here, not meant for attendees on this thread, more for all readers (especially when I talk about "democratic"). Therefore the warning: Dear anonymous readers, don't think "freedom of speech" is "freedom of responsibility" here. Makes me sad, but in those times? Needed to mention more than once and not meant to you, zapper. People react sometimes very strange when reading keywords. Happens to all of us, so I used that point to mention our clear stance!

Just to mention it: The pure definition of the FSF is so far okay. But their way to communicate and state it in reality is full with flaws. They are not recognizing the problems of the device and computer they are recommending as Purism is NOT any kind of helper in that situation. Selling smoke and illusions: Yes, some more "free" devices, but first they are very expensive and second the system around is not free and libre (PureOS itself has flaws). Being connected for values and strict principles instead of doing the opposite.

Yeah... that was my point...

Also, as I mentioned, you cant find any project worse than Purism on crowdsupply that is currently still there...

I think I mentioned something about this regarding a different project on a similar thread on Hyperbola, but it seesm you moved it, but yeah:

https://ubuntu.com/blog/meet-orwl-the-f … e-computer

This is actually, the only device maker, that I have seen that tops Purism on the evil scale, with actual false promises...

Deception wise, probably they are just small fish in a huge pond though.

I think that was why you removed it from the other thread?

Which was here?

https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=276

Feel free to clarify if you wish, I thought it was on topic, regarding deception and how some companies or corporations do massive amounts of deception...

But yeah, if you moved, because it was a defense of Purism? I guess you could call it that? Except, 10 on the deception meter, compared to 9.9.9.9 is really not a huge difference...

9 being the other company, 8.9.9.9 being purism.

10 being the worst...

So...

And between we can take some recommendations like Framework with. Nevertheless also that is very expensive at all. As said: Free hardware should be always affordable for earthlings and not something defined as luxury good.

Besides to mention that the FSF is recommending the "phone" defined hardware from Purism and so doing the opposite of they are telling. But well? People like illusions.

Yeah... there is a huge difference between recommendation something with a gaping backdoor still within and lots of insecurity issues, most of it being proprietary or having other DRM issues that will never be libre and will effectively be obsolete by the time it is perfected by like 25+ years

And something that is at least 50% free hardware that has potential to not require any DRM to use and

This is why FSF's idea of a free software smartphone is beyond insane...

I think of being able to use a fully free operating system smartphone with no backdoors open, being about 1000x more problematic /difficult then making something like an invidio instance for youtube as a way to fix the privacy issues of said service.

You can basically ignore most of the above, I will sum it up this way:

Imagine you found an actual carrier that while being non-proprietary you could use its sattelites without any privacy issues...

Now, do people really think this would even be remotely possible without having the same issues invidio developers have with google constantly trying to break their service?

As for wifi, yeah... the same thing applies here as well.

Also, if the Feds even allowed it to exist, they would pay hackers to shut it down probably.

This is the tame version, but I will send you the actual  version if you would like...

Anywho, sorry to waste so much time on this thread, done now.

Besides to mention that the FSF is recommending the "phone" defined hardware from Purism and so doing the opposite of they are telling. But well? People like illusions.

That being said,  not all of this post should be tossed out the window.

My point was, if you don't make the problem very crystal clear when a user installs said OS, they will just move to other distros...

It should also be said, Hyperbola doesn't need to support this idea.

This is more for distros who are willing to take the risk, in favor of liberation, even if risky.

This below idea is also kind of meh...

The FSF “Respects Your Freedom” certification has a loophole so large you could drive a truck through it called the “secondary processor exception”. This is because it knows that generally speaking, entirely libre devices do not presently exist that have the capabilities people want. Purism used this loophole to sell a phone that had proprietary software blobs while passing it off as entirely free. The relevant text of the exception that allowed them to do this was:

You do know that, its hard enough even to find DRM-Free Hardware, let alone the impossible 100% Free hardware definition.

My point being, this will not happen for a very long time, or unless a huge change happens. That huge change would probably have to be so monsterous that  it would seem utterly impossible.

Btw, the Novena part is also true.

If you want to ignore almost everything else, I agree on that too.

In essence, a quarter of what was said has some truth.

As for nvidia, like you, I also don't see much of a future for that graphics card for the forseeable future.

Another words, unless something changes, to be honest I see more of a future with ARM64, Risc-V and OpenPower9 or Microwatt or Libre-Soc processors than x86 and especially nvidia...

I do think the above non-x86 and non-nvidia will be more easily liberateable in the future.

Please try to have more hope for the alternatives to x86... you never know man!

Okay, cool: So again the on-going "please buy newer and newer and throw the rest on the trash"-thought in the end.

Besides: The X200 was distributed between 2008 and 2010, the X60 between 2006 and 2008, the T400 from 2008 and 2010, the T500 from 2008 and 2010 and so on. Nice that someone has not made the homework (meaning the person created the article).

There is a reasoning for and a right to have a machine in which mostly parts being a problem are reduced or mitigated when not further possible for the moment. Sorry, but on the worldwide network there are literally uncountable views and persons wanting our attention. The above link shows me personal someone I personally don't either want to read or follow within views. The ideal situation ("Free and libre hardware being the same way secure and compatible") is not possible at the moment, from different reasonings. Nevertheless: Coreboot and Libreboot is the best to be done and systems like ours here are doing the best possible. If someone has another better idea with the same amount of freedom and possible security? Okay, get here for a talk. If not? Please write blogs of whatever, but no further attention from me onto that. GNU/Linux is right out of that reasoning going to be unusable: Because of endless pragmatism!

You should accept that someone else has the "right" to modify the hardware you own, at any time and without your own control. Your only point is to "consume", to "use in the way decided from others" and then "buy something newer when time comes". That is the mentioned "pragmatism" and there is no GPU from AMD for example running without unfree firmware. The other link is exactly underlining that, but it is not "censorship". It is just the point about dictation and that is what our times are about. foremost. Dictation in form of the decision for "capitalism" as others decide what we can copy, we can "own", build or modify, and what we can't. That's why copyright is the worst way to do. And that's why this thread here demonstrates one way companies do some illusioning, nothing more. And Mr. Stallman has from my point nothing to do with anything. The FSF has failed to communicate clear enough or doing more for possible ideal devices. They have failed on many ways, but nevertheless some sticker like "Respects your Freedom" is also not really needed. But the first article has a good summary:

Oh yes, and here it is: The known "where would we have been without the companies"- or "the market is doing everything and correcting"-fails. How would it be to get behind the EC-firmware for example and go with enforced laws so all hardware has to made public? All drivers? And more of the rest. But the author is not able to bring up especially that point by making the difference between free software running and hardware itself. That's the reasoning at all why we are here in that situation. Because of "pragmatism" we ignore everything and that's why we should never get into that mode. Going with logic fallacies like "the faster the better" or "more progress at any costs" will never be good. Someone has posted therefore the own position, good thing and interesting for a read but nothing more. Personally I come to a different position, but good to know more about some people behind "Alpine Linux". Besides all is up to also own interpretation from me at the mentioned points - I can and want be false onto them: People using for sure old hardware doing that out of different points and reasons. Recommending to be "pragmatic" ends up especially there where the Linux-kernel is today.

And now I think it is time to stop that part of the discussion: It is about NVidia and we should not bring the discussion more and more into off-topic as we are doing right now.

https://ariadne.space/2022/01/22/the-fs … are-users/

In thinking, but I recommend reading it in full...

More or less, regarding hardware and software, unless the proprietary part of the firmware has, been determined to be a remote threat,  whether it be usb, intel me, etc...

Aka, easily exploitable over the internet or if its being used while the device is off,

if none of that is determined to be the case after 5 years or someone has gotten full access to know its not an issue without any legal crap preventing them to say what issues need to be fixed, which don't need,

my point being,  if that's all true, which are  a lot of ifs and buts, then I agree with the above links' thought process...

Btw, here is why stallman should allow the messages for why it cannot be used within the system itself...

https://web.archive.org/web/20180724183 … mbers.html

basically, censorship, exacerbates the problem and doesn't fix it.

if people know a problem exists, they are more likely to fix it...

Just something to remember...

Speaking for the GPU itself: Yes, there was much work and effort done from the Nouveau-team. But also here: It is quite better to have the original code for driver and firmware as to do reverse engineering. Doing especially that for drivers can get complicated, especially within the context when the codebase is "moving" and has the need to do (meaning implementation of interfaces for the kernel, mesa-integration further and more). All in all: The promise of NVidia was and is a foul and toxic one. As already known from those companies.

Reverse engineering is also not without risks. I know dozens of projects being removed, closed or taken down because someone stated they have "stolen the code". A clean implementation from scratch is way better. Not meant to disrespect the work of the people doing reverse engineering, but we are not talking about some older game or application here. Until the hardware is also defined as free we always walk on risks or the manufacturers have no further interest because it is too old. So that would be my guess and stay for sure.

Free hardware needs to be affordable and especially oriented onto the basics for a future without big amount of waste being done in respect for our environment and the climate. That would be my definition. You may for sure disagree, but the point is: Buy something new? You create the known points about "consume". And many hardware offered is way more expensive than it should be for sure in any way. For example "Talos". Under all that named points: ARM has TrustZone for example and is non-free as you cannot implement your own CPU without getting the license for that. For RISC-V: Seems better, but here again ... either that kind of expensive without any further outcome for the next years or free software is missing at all. We have a circle therefore and from my point of view we should first stay where we have a good chance of a better outcome instead of waiting for some dreamcastles or further expensive promises.

I share all the hope, but I am also oriented to go stepwise and we should not forget first that free systems and projects like Hyperbola have the best chances to get technical emancipation to people with not much income and being not able to afford freedom-oriented hardware that expensive. Also it is better for our environment in the end: Buyng used instead new. Yes: Older perhaps, not the fastest also. But here comes the most problematic point: In our global society especially those are named as "bad". Being slower than others means not coming with. Without having the need we have defined disgusting rulesets to define individuals as "not needed". So all in all: There is much work to do.

Going therefore also for the original topic: As long as manufacturering companies only see their own "profit" and "benefit" as long there won't be any further solution at all. Projects iike "Mnt reform" will always need them to accomplish and so they have to accept the maximum on free parts those companies will give them. The point to decide is in the end always on their side. And under those points I personally right away go very much back again from the starting point: We need for sure other circumstances so "Mnt reform", Coreboot and many others can work better. You can see that especially at NVidia: Their so-called "free GPU kernel driver" is only for newer generations. What about the older ones? Left alone. Had Nouveau a better chance for getting support? Also: No. Marketing and nothing more in the end. That's a pity.

https://github.com/liukangcc/TrustZone

This is open source though?

Also, maybe the GPU driver was reverse engineered for the older one?

Dunnp, LS1028A is one he says has potential to be libre though.

The other designs? probably not as much by FSF's standards, due to the whole, AC wifi card issue.

Otherwise?

Should be fine I think. Will watch and wait on this though.

Supposedly, Pinebook pro has an RK3399 and works without any non-free crap according to a buddy of mine online.

It is possible that LS1028A could be used in a libre way, without 3D acceleration. Maybe possible another way?

Not sure yet,  but don't write it off yet, beyond the price anyhow...

Btw, its possible that info you found is massively outdated, someone might have reverse engineered it elsewhere...

anywho later man!

I share all the hope, but I am also oriented to go stepwise and we should not forget first that free systems and projects like Hyperbola have the best chances to get technical emancipation to people with not much income and being not able to afford freedom-oriented hardware that expensive. Also it is better for our environment in the end: Buyng used instead new. Yes: Older perhaps, not the fastest also. But here comes the most problematic point: In our global society especially those are named as "bad". Being slower than others means not coming with. Without having the need we have defined disgusting rulesets to define individuals as "not needed". So all in all: There is much work to do.

Going therefore also for the original topic: As long as manufacturering companies only see their own "profit" and "benefit" as long there won't be any further solution at all. Projects iike "Mnt reform" will always need them to accomplish and so they have to accept the maximum on free parts those companies will give them. The point to decide is in the end always on their side. And under those points I personally right away go very much back again from the starting point: We need for sure other circumstances so "Mnt reform", Coreboot and many others can work better. You can see that especially at NVidia: Their so-called "free GPU kernel driver" is only for newer generations. What about the older ones? Left alone. Had Nouveau a better chance for getting support? Also: No. Marketing and nothing more in the end. That's a pity.

Coreboot is absolutely fine, especially when it comes to so-called "after-market hardware" and support for that. So no problems with that. My criticism above is just about centralized towards the FSF, because they are doing smoke and marketing, but nothing more. Projects like Libreboot had bunch of problems over the years also, so for now it seems we have another stable release (not final test from me for the moment as I need first to rebuild the R400 for that case). Nevertheless: I think the concurrent situation should be used to have something in the backhand. The coreboot-maintainers wrote about worries that coming hardware from Intel and AMD won't be even possible to be in usage with coreboot or any free BIOS / UEFI.

And ARM or RISC-V sounds nice on the paper, but that's it besides ARM is also not "free" per definition and in need for firmware-blobs. Conclusion would be: Have in reach for "after-market hardware" at best and making a mirror of what to get from Hyperbola or others in favor. I think computing is a field of a problem for years to come as people have no further understanding for "free culture" and FLOSS in general. Sounds like I make fun of them or want to have them look bad. The opposite: It is understandable because there is no just recognizable influence at a point when some data is misused. But we should never stop on mentioning that free culture and free / libre soft- and hardware is essential needed.

As I said elsewhere, osboot and libreboot are still better than using the regular  bios and her coding skills is not an issue.

This all being said, if libreboot's newest version has better battery handling, same with osboot whenever it gets a beta or even stable release again, etc...

Then I will use it.

You do things the way you think best though if you want, I just don't think that's the right move for this time period, etc...

This is one time, the FSF is right, I would say.

As for ARM, RISC-V and non-x86 as a whole, I disagree on most of what you said, especially in the early creation points.

Mnt reform, having swappable modules btw, doesn't change its usefulness and using it won't contribute as much to climate change as friggin x86, etc...
UEFI, does indeed suck, but that also being said,

microwatt, libre-soc, are also future options.

Luke Kenneth did fail miserably on the eoma68, for sure...

but, he was basically alone doing that project, with really old processors, etc...

Which is probably the opposite, of the libre-soc project, so it might succeed this time.

But yeah, nvidia is only for graphics cards... meaning, I don't think anyone in their right mind should want it.

Then again, who knows how many people have that level of sanity nowadays...

Intel?

Beyond gen 3, I  mostly have no interest in it and only if its corebooted + me disabled or better.

But yeah, Only time will tell, for any of this.

Hope it works out!

Oh, btw... next chance I talk to you, I might have something to let you know about...

Peace man!

And ARM or RISC-V sounds nice on the paper, but that's it besides ARM is also not "free" per definition and in need for firmware-blobs. Conclusion would be: Have in reach for "after-market hardware" at best and making a mirror of what to get from Hyperbola or others in favor. I think computing is a field of a problem for years to come as people have no further understanding for "free culture" and FLOSS in general. Sounds like I make fun of them or want to have them look bad. The opposite: It is understandable because there is no just recognizable influence at a point when some data is misused. But we should never stop on mentioning that free culture and free / libre soft- and hardware is essential needed.