126

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

As the next version of Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre will get more focus also on the "desktop-experience" we are for sure interested to develop a package with that focus. The first proposal therefore would be hyperdesktop-lumina. If there is more interest to do that together from the community it would make sense to create also another thread for that purpose.

Also included within:

- own slim-theme
- lumina-theme being done at a point
- decription what is needed manually after installation

The reasoning for such called "meta-package" would be to make it easier for people to install some kind of complete package and round up their own desktop-experience without breaking essential values of Hyperbola itself. Also interesting therefore would be then other packages alike:

hyperdesktop-icewm
hyperdesktop-jwm
hyperdesktop-openbox

To be continued for sure.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

127

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

We are testing and preparing the complete removal of zstd as this package is violating the idea of a community-driven effort. With its removal we will need perhaps to remove also others but we work hard not being forced to do that. Nevertheless: zstd is exactly the opposite of community-driven as this is just "corporate open-source".

Yes, in some way free and permissive licensed. But please just look at the license-holder behind that project: We don't want to support those structures.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

128

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

The following packages were already identified and going for a removal, without any chance of an alternative:

librabbitmq-c -  we don't and won't provide rabbitmq
mongo-c-driver - we don't and won't provide mongodb (non-free license)
librdkafka - we don't and won't provide Apache Kafka (depending on Java)
fvwm3 - mandatory dependency towards mongo-c-driver
libmaxminddb - we don't want to provide further geoip-dependencies
mmdblookup - we don't want to provide further geoip-dependencies

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

129 (edited by HarvettFox96 2023-01-22 13:56:12)

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

I have a quick question. If adobe-source-code-pro-fonts and adobe-source-sans-pro-fonts are in the repo, can we remove 'em all as unnecessary because of "corporate open-source"?

130

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Yes, looking onto. But please have a bit patience as this needs to be reviewed step by step.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

131

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Ouch, webkitgtk depends on adobe-source-code-pro ... for whatever obscure reason

132 (edited by anthk 2023-01-22 17:31:50)

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

throgh wrote:

As the next version of Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre will get more focus also on the "desktop-experience" we are for sure interested to develop a package with that focus. The first proposal therefore would be hyperdesktop-lumina. If there is more interest to do that together from the community it would make sense to create also another thread for that purpose.

Also included within:

- own slim-theme
- lumina-theme being done at a point
- decription what is needed manually after installation

The reasoning for such called "meta-package" would be to make it easier for people to install some kind of complete package and round up their own desktop-experience without breaking essential values of Hyperbola itself. Also interesting therefore would be then other packages alike:

hyperdesktop-icewm
hyperdesktop-jwm
hyperdesktop-openbox

To be continued for sure.

Fine. These should depend either on pcmanfm or zzzfm and a volume mounter such as udevil. Also, as wireless today it's very common, dhcpcd-ui and wpa_supplicant should be suggested, too. Of couse, gvolwhell and the sndiod mixer are fine to have, too. Lxappearance and qtct are fine, but as we lack the PKGBUILD for QT styles, a global theme for Hyperbola would be difficult to set.

The backlight key mapping could be set at the wm settings as a shortcut. Not easy to do, as every wm has it's own config file, but it can be suggested in /usr/share/doc/$PACKAGE.

IDK on session handling, but these desktops need an entry as a desktop file on XDG xsession launching these components well after the window manager so they can integrate in the systray.

But first, please, corrected xenocara packages+xlsfonts must hit the testing repos.

133

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

anthk wrote:

But first, please, corrected xenocara packages+xlsfonts must hit the testing repos.

The corrected groups are already now pushed. With all the latest demanded packages and additions this will also need time for xlsfonts. I see if I can add that later even today. But more than working is not possible for us! smile

And please to note also: We don't need session-handling. Hyperbola is not meant as convinience system. Making it easier in some way is not a problem. But nevertheless: The mission is technical emancipation, not technical convinience. We are not here to go for the always "against systemd"-debates for example. We are also not oriented on wishing the next "crypto"-dream around - just because people asked more than once for those packages. Hyperbola is and stays a lightweight system, as a server meant and also as a desktop making it possible. But not on the cost of bloatware or Linux-only packages being incompatible with the rest. That's not ours to be done and we won't add packages being not at minimum possible to be ported or using bloated, non-free frameworks and languages.

Just to mention it generic again as we have seen questions around in IRC and elsewhere again for packaging that way.

In detail: pcmanfm is NOT possible being added as we have tried more than once doing that and it always failed. Those ideas as meta-packages should only use packages being existing. Please let's use what is here!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

134

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

More than a session, a session file under /usr/share/xsession with a script calling the background programs (some of them delayed with sleep, the systray depending ones) and the window manager.

I know that's trivially doable under ~/.xinitrc or ~/.xsession, but for a meta-package a desktop file it's preferable as slim
would handle it automatically upon being installed.

On Xenocara, now it's fixed, it works great. A little step towards a libre, slim and bloat-free GNU system smile.

135

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

This won't be possible as we cannot enumerate the username for example and should never do that. But we can create an install-file for example with exact points what to be done after installation. Otherwise we will get problems with groups the user needs to be in and more. But we can be creative nevertheless and leave a clean package afterwards.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

136

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Good news: fvwm3 will be saved, so we will just loose literally lost ends all around. Meaning: Libraries connecting to somethin we don't have in the repositories and surely will never have. Most of them were nevertheless only "optional dependencies" as possible to connect to the appliances marked - from the early days of the development for 0.4. This slight cleanup is a good step forward also for Hyperbola so we have not only our own packages and the basic build-scripts behind are surely always in a fitting good quality.

The removal of zstd will consist of two steps therefore:

- first we cut out the binding towards the package and rebuilding all in need
- after further checks within testing-branch the now sole existing package can be removed in a safe state

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

137

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

There is further work on additional packages like rhythmbox. Also the IDE codeblocks will get a closer look, when possible. Besides that there are coming more fixes and updates like cups for example.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

138

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

What is the particular problem of Rabbitmq? Maybe a de-facto closedness of Erlang/OTP?

139

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Unicon. A modern implementation of the Icon language. It has a builtin GUI/IDE by default
and support against multimedia, 3D, databases and sockets. It has classes and methods, too.
A nice alternative to Java (not on compatibility basis, but IDE+multiplatform support+
GUI toolkit support).

Of course is not as big as a JDK, but the install size of Unicon it's pretty small.

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/unicon

http://unicon.org

140

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

schilling.klaus wrote:

What is the particular problem of Rabbitmq? Maybe a de-facto closedness of Erlang/OTP?

First thing there is no special usecase we could provide as system. But furthermore the company VMWare behind: It is more just the common known scheme of "corporate open-source", where some company gives out a bits of code for the world outside. But those bits carry their name and also in the future more dependencies outwards. As system this is for sure not reliable in any way. Yes, sounds like a bad story to be told, but other companies have done those ways in the past a bit different but the same outcome to create "standards" only up to their advantages. The opposite site would be full community-driven approach and that's also the reasoning for us to remove the support of zstd complete for now and in the future. Same thing not even starting to provide rabbitmq.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

141

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

anthk wrote:

Unicon. A modern implementation of the Icon language. It has a builtin GUI/IDE by default
and support against multimedia, 3D, databases and sockets. It has classes and methods, too.
A nice alternative to Java (not on compatibility basis, but IDE+multiplatform support+
GUI toolkit support).

Of course is not as big as a JDK, but the install size of Unicon it's pretty small.

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/unicon

http://unicon.org

Thanks was already noted throughout IRC yesterday and the package is ready for the next commit. wink

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

142

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

No, thanks to you all for the hard work. By the way, I acknowledge the Unicon IDE it's a bit WIP,
but it comes with free as in freedom books and guides in both the Github repos and their web pages,
so compiling a 'big' project with just the command line it's very easy.

Also, it has POSIX support!

If I have some time, I might submit a patch so we have better fonts by default in the IDE menues.

143

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Feel welcome: For sure also for the patch. Next to come will be the building of the latest batch of additions, fixes and updates. After that there is then coming those named here, with a bit more extras also in the backpack.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

144

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

I can't find unicon for OpenBSD.

145

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

schilling.klaus wrote:

I can't find unicon for OpenBSD.

This here: https://openports.pl/path/lang/unicon
It is within the ports.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

146 (edited by anthk 2023-02-01 12:57:29)

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

The OpenBSD port it's badly outdated.

Current v13.2 version: http://unicon.org/dist/uni.zip

No Unicode yet on the GUI, but console based tests display UTF8 symbols on UTF8 terminals.

But it might get a basic XFT+Unicode support in a few months.

OTOH, it supports OpenAL, OpenGL, XFT *under* OpenGL renders (not widgets) and it cross-arch and
portable to multiple OSes.

147

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

unicon was added yesterday: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … bd10ae1841

Also included are:

isync -> https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … f2ce998887
msmtp -> https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … ba9a258cdc

For faster building I want to remember everyone that for the moment the build-server is local as we have not that amount of money to have a dedicated VPS doing that. With more donations we have also more possibilities to get that faster managed and the local server can be used for any other purpose. As long as we don't get more support we can only move forward slowly.

I want also to point onto the current thread here in the forums as there is always the possibility to support with packaging. Remember: Donations don't have to be only on the financial level.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

148

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

has anyone looked into nerdctl
is lincensed under apachev2 and seems like a decent alternative to docker not sure if it is entirely libre or if has sane dependencies but would be interesting to investigate:

https://github.com/containerd/nerdctl

P.S. added it here so i dont forget aboout it
Cheers

149

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

i noticed that python-flask was removed believ that is a mistake given it is a very lighweight software and usefull for many devs, has well has being usefull for our own website implementation in the future.

If Im missing something please let me know.

150

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

i3_relativism wrote:

has anyone looked into nerdctl
is lincensed under apachev2 and seems like a decent alternative to docker not sure if it is entirely libre or if has sane dependencies but would be interesting to investigate:

https://github.com/containerd/nerdctl

P.S. added it here so i dont forget aboout it
Cheers

Problem here is the implementation within go. We need to be very careful looking as we only use gcc-go. For reference there: https://go.dev/doc/install/gccgo

The version implemented within gcc-go is therefore behind the official go released. And that is only again "corporate open-source". So in favor for community-driven software we only stay at gcc-go. And that's the problem for many packages and software-projects using this.

i3_relativism wrote:

i noticed that python-flask was removed believ that is a mistake given it is a very lighweight software and usefull for many devs, has well has being usefull for our own website implementation in the future.

If Im missing something please let me know.

No not really a mistake: The risk is quite too high for further vulnaribilities as the removal was based on python-werkzeug which has enough problems, just the newest one: https://security.snyk.io/vuln/SNYK-PYTH … UG-3319936
I have even tried to upgrade both packages just last week but then discovered the newest reports again.

Both packages can for sure return here in the forums as separate PKGBUILDs for individual usage. smile
To understand: Lightweight is fine, but we have to be careful for too much web-driven packages as they are for sure the way for vulnerablities to come. And python-flask has also enough CVE-reports, some very severe depending on the used version. So the more people support within parts like that, the more packages can be controlled. Until we have only a small team we can only respect the reports and with enough risk remove the packages before any kind of damage could be caused as we beed also respect dependencies: Just upgrading is then not always a solution when some other software depending is no longer working.

And just to add a personal note: Even when the "world" and "people" think the "future" is in the web, I state here a clear NOPE. The "web" we are using for the moment is a big bloated landscape of different protocols and most of them are full of security-issues and growing as I even write those lines here. With what was original intended is this no longer in any way comparable. A big kind of joke and nice fairy-tale with people using it every day not knowing what kind of big problems they are loading on their mobile and steady devices. It is no problem to have connections, a global planned network with different ideas, if there would not be that much amount of bloat in all categories ... technical, social and economical. It is weird to have the common belief also in parts of the free community (not meant to anyone here in the thread only generic stated) that we overcome current problems (caused by bloated frameworks and software) with even MORE bloated frameworks and software. It is like fighting a big fire with causing an even bigger fire with some kind of hope both can neutralize each other. The reasoning would be quite more to reduce the amount. Yes, also with the costs of loosing some known convinience. Just because I am also forced and confronted with those bloated daily sites does not mean I'm okay with this course. It is just that: No other choice. But we can do different in more smaller rooms like this one here. And so we do! smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!