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Topic: New Libreboot release

New Libreboot release is coming... https://libreboot.org/news/libreboot202104xx.html
"Many new boards will be supported"...What do you guys think about it? Any thoughts about Osboot? "it permits binary blobs"
By the way, today I was trying to run memtest86+ on Libreboot... With no success. Does anybody knows how to do it without reflashing libreboot (text mode)? Unfortunately, I didn't find any decent manual for a newbie, only scarce information.
Another question: who knows how to check if ram works in dual channel mode on Libreboot? dmidecode didn't help me...

2 (edited by throgh 2021-03-31 01:56:46)

Re: New Libreboot release

Well? Leah had done quite astonishing things in the past, but this one does not count into. Personally I won't trust her or use any other newer release of Libreboot. The reasoning is simple with a concrete look onto the last actions Leah had done: https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html

And again Leah is mixing up her personal views onto social constructs into the project: The news to be linked has included the part (quote) "Codes of conduct are stupid". Long story short: No they are not and stating this makes it even more worse. Once the Libreboot-project had a democratic organization behind. Of course talks between members of the project can be difficult, especially when it goes this way. But just changing everything without any further transparency? Okay: Not the nice way to go and not the way I will ever accept a project in this dimension. Regarding the "Code of Conduct": There would have been seriously quite many options, but the worse one is not to create anything like a ruleset to welcome others and instead also doing the comparable the same now as Leah is stating something about Coraline Ada Ehmke without any further sources. Thanks, but no, Libreboot! I don't accept toxic behaviour and I don't adapt "news" made personal like some blog-posting on a project-website without any further possibility getting into the perspective. roll

I've stated once and quite a long time that Libreboot is not dead and there is work done into the repositories. But for now I'll state: Libreboot is now really a dead project just consisting of literally one person. Whenever Leah is in trouble or loosing interest there will be no further take onto Libreboot. So in the end it turns out even more bad! Yes, there was no further release for a long period. But if this is the price getting all others out? Well, thanks but I'll stay on Coreboot then and of course: The older release when the project was oriented towards democratic principles, with a code of conduct and with welcoming people. To be also fair, here is the perspective of Leah about resignations: https://libreboot.org/news/resignations.html

Very much drama from my point of view and I can understand Andrew Robbins absolutely: The second time everything is changed and rewritten again, coming also up from Leah herself again. Well? No trust into this action and therefore also not in Libreboot as project. There is no team behind that and the last persons left are no longer part of this. And again: Free, libre hardware had become quite smaller. Yes, this is Leah's project and it started this way. So she can keep the upcoming release and also the sources! She wants to be in charge to produce a fast new release? Do it and keep Libreboot. It's a pity but the project won't recover on this way and I think the same as Andrew Robbins. Perhaps there will be a fork? Again with a democratic organization? With a clear including ruleset - no need to call this one way or another, but when there is nothing some people tend to go just wild with meritocratic principles being so much forgiving about harassment and hatred. Do more for the "project", being the person everything and everyone depends on? Okay, you can do just anything without further consequences. But hey: "Codes of conduct are stupid"? Of course they are if you have to reflect on your own behaviour towards others. Absolutely inacceptable to remove democratically-governed basics and nevertheless stating to be for freedom is a bad joke!

As you asked for OSBoot: Coming up from the same person, also developed only of interest from the same person, with the same principles as Libreboot was adapted now - strange, as the project itself was started as Retroboot once and was clearly announced as another take from Leah to give back changes to the Libreboot-project (as Andrew Robbins stated) - the same as for Libreboot from now on as long as Leah Rowe is again in charge for the project. Your second question about memtest86+: Ask for this within the IRC, perhaps Leah knows a solution for this. Yeah, sounds quite bitter now from my side but again another disappointment. Seems happening quite often these days and I cannot understand why giving up an emancipated structure for a project like this. But the x86-platform is damaged up to be completely useless freedom-wise. So all in all? Just for the records: https://notabug.org/osboot/osbmk/issues … ment-23279

To quote:

And you are mistaken: swiftgeek has no power. He has permission. I permit him to do the work he does, at least directly in Libreboot, because he does good work. Otherwise he is free to do whatever he wants, but I accepted him on the core membership team of Libreboot for a reason.

If he were to stop being useful, I'd chuck him in an instant.

Make no mistake; he irritates the hell out of me too, sometimes. However, he is a good person doing excellent work.

Interesting to have this written in the public, in the third person without participation of the person being mentioned and talked about. The rest is up to everyone on any individual level as I don't want to get some kind of angry, just being disappointed about the behaviour. And another quote from the posting about resignations:

When I bring that new release out, I will be re-opening the Libreboot infrastructure for new outside contributors, including those who wish to have review/push/pull access.

We'll see about that, Leah. I don't trust your actions as you have profen yourself not being really trustworthy: Communication is a key point and it seems you have not done this with the other team-members which is causing damage being not repairable anytime soon. And:

I intend to move away from the current notabug.org Git hosting and switch to a self-hosted GitLab CE instance.

Gitlab is not trustworthy and there are enough alternatives like Gitea, Sourcehut or even the version of Gogs notabug is using. But in the end the own decision will be always "right" and "correct" as the article is ending there, of course also with "best wishes" for other distributions of Coreboot done by the now ex-members. Quite a "style", not the best one indeed and not transparent in any way!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

3 (edited by zapper 2021-03-31 09:20:35)

Re: New Libreboot release

throgh wrote:

Well? Leah had done quite astonishing things in the past, but this one does not count into. Personally I won't trust her or use any other newer release of Libreboot. The reasoning is simple with a concrete look onto the last actions Leah had done: https://www.andrewrobbins.info/libreboot.html

And again Leah is mixing up her personal views onto social constructs into the project: The news to be linked has included the part (quote) "Codes of conduct are stupid". Long story short: No they are not and stating this makes it even more worse. Once the Libreboot-project had a democratic organization behind. Of course talks between members of the project can be difficult, especially when it goes this way. But just changing everything without any further transparency? Okay: Not the nice way to go and not the way I will ever accept a project in this dimension. Regarding the "Code of Conduct": There would have been seriously quite many options, but the worse one is not to create anything like a ruleset to welcome others and instead also doing the comparable the same now as Leah is stating something about Coraline Ada Ehmke without any further sources. Thanks, but no, Libreboot! I don't accept toxic behaviour and I don't adapt "news" made personal like some blog-posting on a project-website without any further possibility getting into the perspective. roll

I've stated once and quite a long time that Libreboot is not dead and there is work done into the repositories. But for now I'll state: Libreboot is now really a dead project just consisting of literally one person. Whenever Leah is in trouble or loosing interest there will be no further take onto Libreboot. So in the end it turns out even more bad! Yes, there was no further release for a long period. But if this is the price getting all others out? Well, thanks but I'll stay on Coreboot then and of course: The older release when the project was oriented towards democratic principles, with a code of conduct and with welcoming people. To be also fair, here is the perspective of Leah about resignations: https://libreboot.org/news/resignations.html

Very much drama from my point of view and I can understand Andrew Robbins absolutely: The second time everything is changed and rewritten again, coming also up from Leah herself again. Well? No trust into this action and therefore also not in Libreboot as project. There is no team behind that and the last persons left are no longer part of this. And again: Free, libre hardware had become quite smaller. Yes, this is Leah's project and it started this way. So she can keep the upcoming release and also the sources! She wants to be in charge to produce a fast new release? Do it and keep Libreboot. It's a pity but the project won't recover on this way and I think the same as Andrew Robbins. Perhaps there will be a fork? Again with a democratic organization? With a clear including ruleset - no need to call this one way or another, but when there is nothing some people tend to go just wild with meritocratic principles being so much forgiving about harassment and hatred. Do more for the "project", being the person everything and everyone depends on? Okay, you can do just anything without further consequences. But hey: "Codes of conduct are stupid"? Of course they are if you have to reflect on your own behaviour towards others. Absolutely inacceptable to remove democratically-governed basics and nevertheless stating to be for freedom is a bad joke!

As you asked for OSBoot: Coming up from the same person, also developed only of interest from the same person, with the same principles as Libreboot was adapted now - strange, as the project itself was started as Retroboot once and was clearly announced as another take from Leah to give back changes to the Libreboot-project (as Andrew Robbins stated) - the same as for Libreboot from now on as long as Leah Rowe is again in charge for the project. Your second question about memtest86+: Ask for this within the IRC, perhaps Leah knows a solution for this. Yeah, sounds quite bitter now from my side but again another disappointment. Seems happening quite often these days and I cannot understand why giving up an emancipated structure for a project like this. But the x86-platform is damaged up to be completely useless freedom-wise. So all in all? Just for the records: https://notabug.org/osboot/osbmk/issues … ment-23279

To quote:

And you are mistaken: swiftgeek has no power. He has permission. I permit him to do the work he does, at least directly in Libreboot, because he does good work. Otherwise he is free to do whatever he wants, but I accepted him on the core membership team of Libreboot for a reason.

If he were to stop being useful, I'd chuck him in an instant.

Make no mistake; he irritates the hell out of me too, sometimes. However, he is a good person doing excellent work.

Interesting to have this written in the public, in the third person without participation of the person being mentioned and talked about. The rest is up to everyone on any individual level as I don't want to get some kind of angry, just being disappointed about the behaviour. And another quote from the posting about resignations:

When I bring that new release out, I will be re-opening the Libreboot infrastructure for new outside contributors, including those who wish to have review/push/pull access.

We'll see about that, Leah. I don't trust your actions as you have profen yourself not being really trustworthy: Communication is a key point and it seems you have not done this with the other team-members which is causing damage being not repairable anytime soon. And:

I intend to move away from the current notabug.org Git hosting and switch to a self-hosted GitLab CE instance.

Gitlab is not trustworthy and there are enough alternatives like Gitea, Sourcehut or even the version of Gogs notabug is using. But in the end the own decision will be always "right" and "correct" as the article is ending there, of course also with "best wishes" for other distributions of Coreboot done by the now ex-members. Quite a "style", not the best one indeed and not transparent in any way!


I am saddened to see this too, but, have you conveyed your thoughts to her? In a reasonable manner of course, flaming never solves anything.

But yeah, I won't jump to conclusions for now, I will wait to see how things move.

Aka, I won't judge for now. If the project dies due to this, then I will have no choice but to agree with you.

I do however recommend you look up to see who that Coraline person is though.  To see if she really is that toxic.   Not that I agree with Leah about CoC being bad,  But yeah, I find this all sad.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

4 (edited by throgh 2021-03-31 12:24:48)

Re: New Libreboot release

zapper wrote:

I am saddened to see this too, but, have you conveyed your thoughts to her? In a reasonable manner of course, flaming never solves anything.

But yeah, I won't jump to conclusions for now, I will wait to see how things move.

Aka, I won't judge for now. If the project dies due to this, then I will have no choice but to agree with you.

I do however recommend you look up to see who that Coraline person is though.  To see if she really is that toxic.   Not that I agree with Leah about CoC being bad,  But yeah, I find this all sad.

Hey zapper,

thanks for the feedback. smile
I think I'll look towards the new release coming up and especially the time beyond. Speaking about that: We'll see what's next and that's the point as I'm afraid there are not that much people left being into the development of Libreboot. As I've noted: Leah has done outstanding things and of course this will never be part for me to judge about. But her concurrent behavior is leaving me here with questions especially when it comes towards a "Code of Conduct". I'm collecting therefore alternatives as there are so many of them and try to send them later on. One example is even the Hyperbola Social Contract itself as it is a ruleset on how a community wants to communicate with each other, based on empathy and solidarity, helping each other without any kind of prejudices. Leah said in the article about "new release upcoming" that she don't want adapt the one ruleset from Coraline Ada Ehmke. That's okay as there are many others or you could write down your complete own (again the one for Hyperbola). But she did even more as to reject any ruleset itself with a generalized message and that's the point I'd like to address for now in the upcoming days first.

It's not about me to judge or decide what to do with Libreboot, but I find her steps very harsh and to reading the others like Andrew Robbins makes me sad. I'll see what Leah is up to from the release itself, but for now she is not that kind of trustworthy for me, because there was no stable release for OSBoot also. My thoughts are therefore on the one hand towards the team members left outside and on the other hand also towards Leah herself as she should not engage in too much and is burning down her own engagement, to focus more. Would be otherwise even more worse if both projects and Leah have afterwards problems - besides my own decision about Libreboot for now. All in all the complete situation is really bad!

And yes: I have written down my absolute initial thoughts here, also to reflect about them. It's absolutely okay getting criticism, feedback is welcome. That's my point: The community-aspect as we as earthlings need it and projects could get more out of it by the community for the community. wink

Addendum: Did a little search for Coraline and her postings. Here is more: https://where.coraline.codes/blog/
And also here: https://postmeritocracy.org/
Well it seems this is the generic problem itself and the missing will to do some self-reflection being part of many people into working on "open-source". So again: The criticism coming up from Leah is not understandable from my side as neither myself nor anybody else here have her thoughts heard or her sources she had to come to this conclusion. A Code of Conduct is nothing more than the official statement to be fair for everybody, having ethical standards and also into empathy and solidarity. The base for any humanistic approach. No need to adapt only the one from Coraline, other possibilities found everywhere. But life is not about making jokes throughout the cost of others: If someone is using own freedom to restrict others dignity the freedom comes to a complete stop, immediately. Otherwise we talk about discrimination and disgusting actions coming up with using real discrimination done towards people (prominent example from some "open-source" communities doing jokes with ableism, sexism, transphobic and homophobic wordings, when criticized they instead do victim-blaming). Not "cool" in any kind, therefore inclusion to exclude hatred and defining people only towards what they call "knowledge workers". Meaning: You know more, you are more "valuable" than others. sad
From my concurrent perspective written as I know this problem for a long time: Fascist behaviour is not that easy to define, but it's not to draw a line for exclusion of toxic behaviour otherwise there would be never a line made for justice as a system. It's a complex problem, but it's way too easy defined from technical groups when just using deterministic approach. Technology is and will always be political as everything else. Standing up for humanism is a must, otherwise society fail in one point or another! And no support from my side for projects or individuals to decline humanistic values, empathy and solidarity besides the point that I don't have accept everyhing what Coraline says or writes. It is her point of view. More sources incoming therefore from Libreboot-git: https://notabug.org/libreboot/libreboot … 02104xx.md

To quote:

Coraline: I am transgender, and you suck. In fact, you're a monster. You do not represent us, and I reject your ideas entirely. Your so-called Ethical Source movement pushes non-free licenses; specifically, these licenses, so-called Ethical licenses, place huge restrictions on the usage of the software. If a person uses a program under such licensing, the author can literally deny you access if they happen to disagree with your political views. I believe that all people should have freedom in their computing, even if I dislike their views.

I don't go on with the language, just with the criticism: So it is about the "Ethical License"-topics and the corresponding way being "not free software". Well? Again a complex problem. Perhaps not to solve throughout licensing as Coraline is trying to do. But that's no "monster", just another decision, good or bad is up to the situation itself: It's a tryout and the license can be developed in time. Just a sidenote: Some even don't recognize something as free when capitalism is excluded, but that's some little Whataboutism and has no further place here, only for demonstration on how complex our society was, is and will be. Would be simple to reject "Ethical Licenses" because of being not free, no problem with this and stay true for a ruleset or choose another. The worst step is to change the complete structure away from democratic organization, back towards meritocratic principles where only individuals have respect when they are "knowledge-workers".

To demonstrate the point of complexity: Mastodon had its own problem when Gab entered the space and did a fork of the Mastodon-project. For the people not knowing Gab: Long story short that's a so-called anti-social platform with "ultimate free-speech", where fascists can post whatever they want. So what was done? Many instances blocked Gab and the concurrent infrastructure as also instances in communication with Gab itself. Also some clients blocked Gab within the source-code itself. A line was drawn, was it correct? Until today there are conflicts about that and Coraline tries to address this with another way. Is this correct? Well, I see her point, but I think the license itself is problematic in the conccurrent state and many issues arise when authors can drawback the usage - point made by Leah. But here is the point in question: Better to get in contact with people, writing down thoughts and this doesn't make other thoughts about ethical standards and communities automatically wrong because Coraline has written them down. That's complexity, cannot be declared that easy and deterministic. Only because I understand computers (being exactly: personal computers) I don't fully and always understand social interaction and any situation done again with the same persons under the same circumstances can lead to other results (just one participant have a bad night and sleep is enough)! Just as more to read about the paradoxon of tolerance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

"Tolerating the intolerant will lead to destroy tolerance itself!" (done in short, just as demonstration about the problem mentioned)

In the end I can choose how I oppose intolerance: The worst to ignore it, meaning tolerating it. One possibility to draw a line with rulesets. Behave incorrect, insulting others? Well, time to go while always the possibility is open to use the software of course. The way Coraline is using now - that's the criticism I see from Leah - lead the other way around and can become even worse. For sure a correct point. But regarding the wording "monster" a quote now:

If you look into an abyss for a long time, the abyss also looks into you.

That's another point of complexity: We earthlings learn from our experiences. Too much negative experiences can lead exactly into the "abyss". And of course I have no exact solution on this. But what I have learned in my life until today is that addressing this is one of the most important things. Otherwise we have darkest moments coming up, we had them in the past and we will have them when we are not able to address them. (The quote above is an excerpt from Nietzsche about "fighting monsters". As when you fight them, you should look towards not becoming like them onto this way! Meaning there are things not to do because just to stop some individual or some group, based on the situation also breaking human rights and essential life. But this is also a warning: Seeing into the dark, being always confronted with hatred comes up with a price to pay and not everyone has a choice getting out this viscious circle - double meaning from both sides. Our global society fails to recognize this major problem when people are confronted with hate because they look different, behave something different or talk different, have different perspectives. People are hated and excluded, they learn to defend themselves, more and more. Getting away from hatred is also to give those people first a way to address their heart and soul instead of excluding them and so feeding the monstrosity our society is up to: Being welcome and inclusive with clear principles against intolerance and hatred. And yes: In some parts and communities you are confronted with hatred because you are up to humanism. What kind of society is this tolerating it?)

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

5 (edited by throgh 2021-03-31 20:45:04)

Re: New Libreboot release

Okay, just while writing and editing, reading throughout positive and negative, had even come to some more conclusion to wait, Leah had done the final summary for me to abandon the Libreboot-project with newer releases for the near future. Here to read about it: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html

She is doing literally the same as in the past: Besides the concurrent problems about Richard Stallman the following part is "interesting": https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html#cor … cal-source

First things first:

We in Libreboot recommend that you do not have a code of conduct, because it alienates new contributors and creates a self-censored environment where people feel unable to express their views about issues

That's not true: It's about self-reflection and using this as some kind of argument is just the wrong side. Why should any kind of ruleset "alienate" contributors? Because they have to reflect what they write? Think even before they write down insults and harsh wordings instead being constructive? Wow, and using "self-censoring" as wording speaks out very loud and clear. But there is more:

you see, freedom of speech is healthy, and it’s quite common sense to just deal with bad behaviours. Contributor Covenant is a trojan horse; that’s what they push on you first, and then they’ll recommend you use an Ethical Source license. Once you take your first dose of Ethical Source, they’ll sink their claws into your project. Do not let these types of people infiltrate your project!

Uff, perhaps this: "Freedom of speech" is important but ONLY in combination with responsibility. Hey, someone is just writing down hate? Well, another one is motivated and attack others, even harm others (physically or / and mentally). Is the person used the so-called "freedom of speech" also responsible and being held so? Of course as I cannot create toxic environments, motivate others doing harmful things in some role-model for example and not being in any way responsible and calling this "healthy" is way beyond anything. And I don't do some interpretation here as it is about denying any kind of ruleset and setting up just "freedom of speech", to trust others responsibility. But for what? Anarchism also follows rules, so it's not about the greater good for everybody as enough beings don't have even the possibility to speak out about harassment. That's no "nice game to play", it's literally hate and cannot be classified or called otherwise around like "Hey, I'm just using my freedom of speech!". And what are those people to "infiltrate projects"? Who is exactly "we in Libreboot"? Okay, enough: I'm through with this NEW "Libreboot" coming up from Leah lonely. It's more about this "we against the world" instead of recognizing complexity. It's more about having some "names" being befriend. Why having a project-website held as some kind of blog? Leah had done this in the past and this lead to another big problem while she was using Libreboot against the FSF - mentioning this also in the posting, but just too short as the story was far more complex. And the jump goes even smaller as the posting also has some more conspiracies: Other infiltrating projects? For what reasoning exactly? But hey: "They" (persons unknown) infiltrate. I could change the wording "they" also with some words coming up into the mind but there is the problem: Being not clear does not make this better and it sounds like some "evil plan" is behind. No there is nothing, just human beings doing stuff these days and long before. The "plans" coming up from those theories are the real problem!

She can defend Richard Stallman, it's her decision. But her reasoning is - let's just say - not quite good and fitting. Through with NEW Libreboot, no thanks as this is my personal decision. I don't have the impression Leah is trustworthy leading this kind of project and I will never use a project with such false declaration of freedom of speech without any kind of responsibility taken. We have enough problems literally. It's not about taking others freedom away while this "freedom" leads to suffering and much more worse, literally speaking and comparing. roll
Comparing others to "monsters", setting even them in pair with that without getting in contact? Well, why should I get in contact with such a person to have discussion about that? No, keep Libreboot for good, Leah. That's too much for me and I won't accept that as base. And why should Libreboot or better the website of the project being used for making a complete political statement while the other way around the fight for more fairness is made to fading away: Inacceptable for mixing up the levels and perspectives, right away!

And a perfect demonstration that this project only consits of ONE individual, no one else! Strange also: Is it more important to get a solidarity-statement outside, because of an intransparent action from the FSF instead making Libreboot coming up? Let's see when the new release is coming, but not for me in the near future as I here decline such behaviour completely, there is no "we" just "you" as nobody else left in the project, Leah. I call this a false claim of personas and giving tipps to others to avoid organizations and projects, helps exactly where? This is no technical discussion, where I can say that Gnome is far more into bloatware with clear arguments and having the others free to decide. That's a political debate on the biggest complexity levels possible and you have taken position, decided being without reflection and responsibility. No way, as the text also states clearly some conspiracy ideologies. The community into free, libre soft- and hardware is destroying itself without having a clear position and just take over responsibility, to recognize problems and discuss them as grown ups. We are not in a sandbox and take others toys away, that's far more worse than this. Also again: Andrew Robbins stated this as it destroys the credibility of the free software and culture when others look onto this without having more about the background and seeing that this is coming from individuals. Damn, what a disappointment! And to quote the proof:

Once you take your first dose of Ethical Source, they’ll sink their claws into your project. Do not let these types of people infiltrate your project!

Do not listen to Coraline Ada Ehmke or anyone like her! She is fuelled by hatred and bigotry herself. She is completely intolerant of other people’s views and regularly tries to destroy people she disagrees with.

Personal campaigning to whatever, I don't know and I don't want to know more about this. That's nothing about criticism as Leah had first removed the other contributors and afterwards is doing all of this now. Speaks enough for me: "Anyone like her" is who? "Code of Conduct" or call it just otherwise around is therefore bad? Write your own. No problem, but a good and fair organization where problems can be addressed and people get in touch being really friendly. First accusing others being not fair towards Richard Stallman is one thing, also discussing about wrongdoing, but doing therefore the same other way around now? What should I call this? Mixing personal feelings? Speaking about "we at Libreboot" where no "we" is left? Speaking about winning? Well, staying true to the facts: This was and is a complete intransparent action from the FSF and Richard Stallman himself. Stating to have him as "hero" helps who exactly? Why mixing personal experiences when it comes up to stick just towards facts? Neither the FSF nor many from many projects are willing to learn here, just to declare some enemies outside and / or inside. And I doubt Leah even got in touch with Coraline, she has just taken some others perspectives, quotes:

Coraline is also quite abusive online. There are numerous accounts of her terrorizing companies/projects, acting like a bully. There’s a chance that she might even target the Libreboot project, if someone tells her of this article.

This video by DistroTube provides an excellent account of events aswell:

xxx://xxx/@DistroTube:2/mob-mentality-threatens-the-free:b

(above URL was removed as I don't want give support towards DistroTube as I don't think positive about his work, everyone interested can use the original link within the article and no, there is no "cancelling" just a proof about being not neutral or made more work onto this, I think also critical about the "ethical licensing" but this has to be discussed and not done through campaigning on this level, not worthy for free culture)

Time to get out of this conflict, time to get out of a sandbox. Yes, I play often games, computer-games and others to be exact, but not to harm others and not to be political harmful. Frustrating to read all of this: Being open, for a colourful and peaceful living for every earthling! Stick to facts and not only some sources, reading through, iterating throughout complex situations. But on that level presented here in the blog-post? Impossible as there seems to be a search for revenge, for defending something at any cost and that's without any kind of respect towards any kind of neutral perspective or discussion point!

But the news is out, the damage is done, the project itself will suffer from this as Leah will also be confronted with unneeded discussions as this message and URL is made up into the anti-social platforms, one link to follow: https://fosstodon.org/@xgqt/105984830142972328
Think twice as the discussion is not over yet, just starting and one to know: It will get even more worse. Every warning was ignored, the FSF itself had done damage right away and now others follow on this destructive course. (And I can clearly state that I just analyze what I have found official, the profile from the last URL is not mine as I don't use and deny those platforms, no difference between open or closed!) Cannot say this often enough: Disappointed and frustrated, not only because of the concrete situation regarding the pandemic and also because all of this as it is not needed, clear to see as outcome. What to say in the end? Stay calm and wait, would have been a good tactic here. Well, time is over for this: Posting done, spreading throughout the global network, damage is incoming (does not matter if pro or contra) and the next level is "lynching with words" as this is the point we are now on. Level of frustration is for now exhausting seeing this discussion getting right out of hand and will affect Libreboot as it consists no longer as team, where people can talk to each other, being more open on discussions. Getting this from outside (speaking about me for example) is much more complicated: I'm unknown and as reading through the article again I don't think my perspective or my tryout getting this more towards to "calm down, wait and repair" will ever being heard. So people are left in the echo-chambers and we cannot help here. In the end to follow better the conclusion for using a deblobbed Coreboot in the future. Time can heal those wounds, yes: But they are really big now as the wound within the FSF never healed and is opened again throughout intransparent actions. Others suffer meanwhile, others like Hyperbola being free software and sticking towards clear principles. Not fair, but well? Who said it should be fair? It could have been made this way, for sure. And I won't post other URLs for now showing all the hatred coming up in regards of so-called "freedom of speech" or better to call it freedom from responsibility. Just to have noted for now: There is much suffering be done, the FSF should also held accountable towards this not recognizing all the warnings in the past and Richard Stallman has - let's say - more than problematic viewpoints. It's just one toxic and disgusting cocktail coming up now. So my tipp is: Get on the feet and run as fast as possible outside those rooms full with those so-called "freedom speech" false claims. Too much to mention it, too much even for another posting with analyzing those postings, just suffering and people being afraid, frustrated and disappointed on many levels.

And to get this finalized clear: Richard Stallman has done good things and his codification of Free Software is a gift to all of us. But is the FSF, the Free Software Foundation, just about him in person? I doubt it and a project like Libreboot has no need to present others a message to "Defend Richard Stallman". Yeah, discussions about his wrongdoings should be done, reflections also. But there was 2019 the chance to do so. Now we have 2021 and establishing another position without transparency? Calling this democratic was and is not correct. Defending this? No. Helping to get the facts out? Of course and helping Mr. Stallman on this level? Absolutely. But this won't stop now: If free software cannot continue on without Mr. Stallman's personal intervention, perhaps the idea is not as strong as I thought, and hoped it would be. Staying true for clear humanistic values, not only for some names.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6

Re: New Libreboot release

Thank you for your reply, Throgh. It takes time for somewhat of an outsider like me to comprehend these dramas. I haven't used IRC before, but I'll consider your piece of advice. Basically I'm happy that I have an opportunity to use Libreboot as it is and Hyperbola as well.

7 (edited by zapper 2021-04-01 02:32:26)

Re: New Libreboot release

To be honest, the last time she did something this dumb, she had done so due to being drugged? I think? But yeah, I hope this isn't the same issue...

That's just not good for anyone...

Regardless, CoC should be kept, but yeah... idk whether Leah knows if she thought this through well enough.

PS, I agree with you on distrotube, he is a right wing nut who equated freedom with guns as being the same as freedom with software, hes nuts... no two ways about it. But see if his points are even remotely valid, the distrotube guy I mean regarding that coraline person.

But as for Stallman, maybe look at why she is defending Stallman before you judge her on that.

I agree that he has a lot of questionable decisions, but I don't think he is inherently evil.

I think he just puts his foot in his mouth. Joe Biden is a good example of someone who puts his foot in his mouth too...

more info:  https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html

I agree abolishing the CoC was a really, really dumb idea and that she made a mistake in the libreboot/osboot projects.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

8 (edited by throgh 2021-04-01 14:02:48)

Re: New Libreboot release

No problem at all with defending Mr. Stallmann. But the problem is: HOW Leah is using now the Libreboot-project doing this. The last times those messages were used to criticize the FSF and making some annotations about the TALOS2-systems. I don't think it is correct to use the Libreboot-project as messageboard as this is mixing the perspectives. When searching for the concurrent situation you can find so many different perspectives, there are even some messages about Mr. Stallman and his way to treat the people at the FSF - no further details. I cannot verify anything here and that's also not really my intention. I don't think anybody is inherently evil in this situation or something in this way, so also not Richard Stallman. And Leah is using the expression "we in Libreboot", which is making the situation even more questionable as there is no "we" left. In fact she accuses others being "inherently evil" as "they" (persons) want to "infiltrate projects", that's the definition of doing something with intention and that's the point everything is around by those false accusations (more details later in this posting).

The point is now: The FSF and parts of the community around have some major issues ignored within decades and it is time to reflect about this. That's for sure. The last actions about getting Mr. Stallman back aboard were also not that kind of transparent - speaking about all the members within the FSF itself as this decision was made without them. All in all: The desaster is complete, the damage taken and in that really strange situation it is better to hold still and help getting the facts more inline. There is my criticism at Leah and her lead now for Libreboot: She can take any position she wants. But mixing all this into some "evil plans" for "others to infiltrate free software projects" to "abolish free speech" is the argumentation for me to take the door outside and waiting. Those are viewpoints giving some people the right doing even more harm attacking others (looking into the abyss) and those false accusations condemn humanism or just the tryout doing something for a change is condemned - leads again towards the named ignorance above for decades creating a toxic environment and excluding everyone not fitting into the meritocratic picture. Life is not functional on that level: "Never change a running system" is a phrasing for machines, for deterministic systems like the computer itself, not for social interaction. If we were inbound on that level, nothing won't change ever again, nothing for the better and for hope. This also condemns all the work so many had done for free culture, for free and libre soft- / hardware itself, because it is also a hope for social change, will be ever the same to get people thinking for themselves, being true towards their own and others at the same, no masquerade.

Please don't get me wrong here: I'm really interested having nobody harmed, so Mr. Stallman and Leah as everybody else. This desaster is so complex: Even some management team members resigned (https://www.fsf.org/blogs/executive-dir … -resigning). The situation has to be cleared, but this won't happen by defending someone. This should have been done 2019 and not 2021 with argumentations coming also up from questionable sources (naming DistroTube for example). That's not the way a project like Libreboot should be positioned as this is causing damage without any team behind to get this right and only Leah to bear all of it. Not good, as this "defending at any cost" can also result into the complete destruction of the FSF, the "free software"-movement and Libreboot! sad
It's just the point that there were mistakes and failures made, reflections were ignored, even individuals with good intentions harmed with death threats in the past. Ignoring this further leads only deeper into the dark, better to stay away from those and keep true to values and positive approaches.

By the way: Having people put the foot into the mouth or something else, no problem. Or singing and making music about "Hackers". Really, I find this especially just harmless and smile, just with respect. If we would talk about that only, there would be no problem. wink

In the end I don't see another solution as to wait, not hoping to get the situation even more complicated as it is by now. The messages and posting from Leah are not helpful, instead there are accusations towards others without any further base. Well, that's the problem as Andrew Robbins noted earlier:

Leah not only burnt a bridge with me, she burnt my bridge to free software.

Not speaking about me as everybody has an own bridge, but I find this all more than irritating and harmful for individuals and the perspective for free soft- and hardware, also Leah herself in the end. That's my point to avoid Libreboot and stay outside for now. Even though: It seems more important defending Richard Stallman from the project itself instead of building the project. But it's her decision and hers alone, as it is mine to state that Libreboot won't live longer when this course is used. I would be happy if I'm wrong onto this, really. Nevertheless: For me the project is inacceptable when using such phrasing, such sources and perspectives including hateful conspiracies. That's not my picture of free culture, including all beings. It's more about excluding everyone not fitting into some defined "group", even more also some "cult" defined (no, just a warning, not my intention to compare this directly). Now the entry states "Richard Stallman is OUR hero". Well, thanks but no: Not my hero and I decline those exaggerations complete, because I don't want to run after some names or leader positions, no need doing so and when doing you won't be able to recognize failures as they are part of every being, nobody is free from mistakes or failures. Mr. Stallman is a human being done outstanding things and a gift for many, therefore my respect as I respect also other beings. But I don't want to take the thread here more into off-topic. My criticism towards Libreboot stays and I'm happy with the current (older) stable-version to use, will stay there for future devices as this was done with a democratic organization, not with this. And I won't accept the points Leah made as they are not reasonable, just some pure accusations without facts. There was a time to collect facts in 2019 for Richard Stallman leaving the FSF and if this was wrong, time is over and defending intransparency and secret votings is the complete opposite of freedom, that's for sure. Sidenote: Richard Stallman had also a talk at Microsoft, in front of their logo. Showing also how different it can be: If the "hero"-figur is doing this and others doing the same. Just saying, therefore better to stay true instead defending at any cost and damaging a needed value for technical emancipation (free software)! big_smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9 (edited by zapper 2021-04-02 06:08:49)

Re: New Libreboot release

throgh wrote:

No problem at all with defending Mr. Stallmann. But the problem is: HOW Leah is using now the Libreboot-project doing this. The last times those messages were used to criticize the FSF and making some annotations about the TALOS2-systems. I don't think it is correct to use the Libreboot-project as messageboard as this is mixing the perspectives. When searching for the concurrent situation you can find so many different perspectives, there are even some messages about Mr. Stallman and his way to treat the people at the FSF - no further details. I cannot verify anything here and that's also not really my intention. I don't think anybody is inherently evil in this situation or something in this way, so also not Richard Stallman. And Leah is using the expression "we in Libreboot", which is making the situation even more questionable as there is no "we" left. In fact she accuses others being "inherently evil" as "they" (persons) want to "infiltrate projects", that's the definition of doing something with intention and that's the point everything is around by those false accusations (more details later in this posting).

The point is now: The FSF and parts of the community around have some major issues ignored within decades and it is time to reflect about this. That's for sure. The last actions about getting Mr. Stallman back aboard were also not that kind of transparent - speaking about all the members within the FSF itself as this decision was made without them. All in all: The desaster is complete, the damage taken and in that really strange situation it is better to hold still and help getting the facts more inline. There is my criticism at Leah and her lead now for Libreboot: She can take any position she wants. But mixing all this into some "evil plans" for "others to infiltrate free software projects" to "abolish free speech" is the argumentation for me to take the door outside and waiting. Those are viewpoints giving some people the right doing even more harm attacking others (looking into the abyss) and those false accusations condemn humanism or just the tryout doing something for a change is condemned - leads again towards the named ignorance above for decades creating a toxic environment and excluding everyone not fitting into the meritocratic picture. Life is not functional on that level: "Never change a running system" is a phrasing for machines, for deterministic systems like the computer itself, not for social interaction. If we were inbound on that level, nothing won't change ever again, nothing for the better and for hope. This also condemns all the work so many had done for free culture, for free and libre soft- / hardware itself, because it is also a hope for social change, will be ever the same to get people thinking for themselves, being true towards their own and others at the same, no masquerade.

Please don't get me wrong here: I'm really interested having nobody harmed, so Mr. Stallman and Leah as everybody else. This desaster is so complex: Even some management team members resigned (https://www.fsf.org/blogs/executive-dir … -resigning). The situation has to be cleared, but this won't happen by defending someone. This should have been done 2019 and not 2021 with argumentations coming also up from questionable sources (naming DistroTube for example). That's not the way a project like Libreboot should be positioned as this is causing damage without any team behind to get this right and only Leah to bear all of it. Not good, as this "defending at any cost" can also result into the complete destruction of the FSF, the "free software"-movement and Libreboot! sad
It's just the point that there were mistakes and failures made, reflections were ignored, even individuals with good intentions harmed with death threats in the past. Ignoring this further leads only deeper into the dark, better to stay away from those and keep true to values and positive approaches.

By the way: Having people put the foot into the mouth or something else, no problem. Or singing and making music about "Hackers". Really, I find this especially just harmless and smile, just with respect. If we would talk about that only, there would be no problem. wink

In the end I don't see another solution as to wait, not hoping to get the situation even more complicated as it is by now. The messages and posting from Leah are not helpful, instead there are accusations towards others without any further base. Well, that's the problem as Andrew Robbins noted earlier:

Leah not only burnt a bridge with me, she burnt my bridge to free software.

Not speaking about me as everybody has an own bridge, but I find this all more than irritating and harmful for individuals and the perspective for free soft- and hardware, also Leah herself in the end. That's my point to avoid Libreboot and stay outside for now. Even though: It seems more important defending Richard Stallman from the project itself instead of building the project. But it's her decision and hers alone, as it is mine to state that Libreboot won't live longer when this course is used. I would be happy if I'm wrong onto this, really. Nevertheless: For me the project is inacceptable when using such phrasing, such sources and perspectives including hateful conspiracies. That's not my picture of free culture, including all beings. It's more about excluding everyone not fitting into some defined "group", even more also some "cult" defined (no, just a warning, not my intention to compare this directly). Now the entry states "Richard Stallman is OUR hero". Well, thanks but no: Not my hero and I decline those exaggerations complete, because I don't want to run after some names or leader positions, no need doing so and when doing you won't be able to recognize failures as they are part of every being, nobody is free from mistakes or failures. Mr. Stallman is a human being done outstanding things and a gift for many, therefore my respect as I respect also other beings. But I don't want to take the thread here more into off-topic. My criticism towards Libreboot stays and I'm happy with the current (older) stable-version to use, will stay there for future devices as this was done with a democratic organization, not with this. And I won't accept the points Leah made as they are not reasonable, just some pure accusations without facts. There was a time to collect facts in 2019 for Richard Stallman leaving the FSF and if this was wrong, time is over and defending intransparency and secret votings is the complete opposite of freedom, that's for sure. Sidenote: Richard Stallman had also a talk at Microsoft, in front of their logo. Showing also how different it can be: If the "hero"-figur is doing this and others doing the same. Just saying, therefore better to stay true instead defending at any cost and damaging a needed value for technical emancipation (free software)! big_smile

I don't recommend staying with an old release of libreboot.

I would say, when the new one comes out, switch to it after its clearly stable enough,  but, and this is a big one, if you feel strongly about not liking what she did, don't feel the need to do anything else...

being stubborn due to her failings will only keep your comp open to security issues, etc...

Also, I wish the old maintainer could return.

Alyssa was her name... I believe...

Anyways, she was able to manage things better.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

10 (edited by throgh 2021-04-02 16:34:23)

Re: New Libreboot release

zapper wrote:

I don't recommend staying with an old release of libreboot.

I would say, when the new one comes out, switch to it after its clearly stable enough,  but, and this is a big one, if you feel strongly about not liking what she did, don't feel the need to do anything else...

being stubborn due to her failings will only keep your comp open to security issues, etc...

Also, I wish the old maintainer could return.

Alyssa was her name... I believe...

Anyways, she was able to manage things better.

Well, a deblobbed Coreboot with selected and modified payload (Seabios or Grub) is good though. Also the freedom to stay at some point and version is important - especially when this is about no further CVEs to be fixed. Yeah, could be of course a risk, but otherwise better switching from Libreboot to Coreboot as I've said: Trust is gone completely. The rest will be shown in the future. Leah lost interest more than once and now she has two projects to manage, not only one - which would be just enough. Perhaps somebody creates a fork? But swiftgeek or and_who have understandable wounds to heal. Alyssa left Libreboot and is into working on graphics drivers - and writing wonderful, interesting articles about free soft- and hardware: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/software-fre … power.html.

Besides all of that: Libreboot as name will be more or less something from the past when following the news. Just a name for OSBoot-libre! wink
So I stick towards Coreboot, using information from other sources to compile this without firmware-blobs. The rest stands for me: Her words, her attacks towards others, her really bad behaviour and her course to take away the democratic structure with pointing fingers on the former team-members (didn't even mention that until now, but clear to read).

Stay tuned! The new site and new project will be much better.

No thanks! Better to reference mine with libre Coreboot for the future when talking and writing about. Sounds good so far. big_smile
Reference here: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic … 2844#p2844
With a big THANK YOU towards you, zapper. smile I'll take this to update and build my own infrastructure onto this with Coreboot-libre. A conclusion to show also: Libreboot was a good idea, proven worthy so far until now as it is going down towards individual interests nobody knows except few people. But that's no problem: It is free software and so the community can take it from here. That's emancipation, nothing to do with revenge-campaigns as Leah and some others want to do now!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

11

Re: New Libreboot release

throgh wrote:
zapper wrote:

I don't recommend staying with an old release of libreboot.

I would say, when the new one comes out, switch to it after its clearly stable enough,  but, and this is a big one, if you feel strongly about not liking what she did, don't feel the need to do anything else...

being stubborn due to her failings will only keep your comp open to security issues, etc...

Also, I wish the old maintainer could return.

Alyssa was her name... I believe...

Anyways, she was able to manage things better.

Well, a deblobbed Coreboot with selected and modified payload (Seabios or Grub) is good though. Also the freedom to stay at some point and version is important - especially when this is about no further CVEs to be fixed. Yeah, could be of course a risk, but otherwise better switching from Libreboot to Coreboot as I've said: Trust is gone completely. The rest will be shown in the future. Leah lost interest more than once and now she has two projects to manage, not only one - which would be just enough. Perhaps somebody creates a fork? But swiftgeek or and_who have understandable wounds to heal. Alyssa left Libreboot and is into working on graphics drivers - and writing wonderful, interesting articles about free soft- and hardware: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/software-fre … power.html.

Besides all of that: Libreboot as name will be more or less something from the past when following the news. Just a name for OSBoot-libre! wink
So I stick towards Coreboot, using information from other sources to compile this without firmware-blobs. The rest stands for me: Her words, her attacks towards others, her really bad behaviour and her course to take away the democratic structure with pointing fingers on the former team-members (didn't even mention that until now, but clear to read).

Stay tuned! The new site and new project will be much better.

No thanks! Better to reference mine with libre Coreboot for the future when talking and writing about. Sounds good so far. big_smile
Reference here: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic … 2844#p2844
With a big THANK YOU towards you, zapper. smile I'll take this to update and build my own infrastructure onto this with Coreboot-libre. A conclusion to show also: Libreboot was a good idea, proven worthy so far until now as it is going down towards individual interests nobody knows except few people. But that's no problem: It is free software and so the community can take it from here. That's emancipation, nothing to do with revenge-campaigns as Leah and some others want to do now!

Why don't you reach out to Swiftgeek and andrew about that other repository I brought up before?

the github one I mean...

If you feel strongly you cannot trust Leah, maybe that would be a good idea.

Better to have something working than nothing.

I do find it a shame Alyssa is not available anymore... sad

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

12 (edited by throgh 2021-04-03 17:04:42)

Re: New Libreboot release

Hey, interesting idea. Trying out to get both onto the repository. Perhaps they want to help and Libreboot stays alive, not only as name?
We'll see about that. Yeah, it's a pity about Alyssa, but she has reached good development on other parts. Don't giving up hope, even if I'm disappointed in some ways: I wish Leah only she could have another look onto her actions within this time as she had done in the past. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

13 (edited by throgh 2021-04-05 14:50:26)

Re: New Libreboot release

Seems a little bit complicated to get in touch with swiftgeek or and_who. Will try further, but cannot promise anything about it. As to mention again: The last fallback stays to get more in touch with the author of the repository on Github from my current perspective. Trying out further!

EDIT: To be final clear. I won't engage further in this matter. The topic "Libreboot" is final for me and the way stays for Coreboot.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

14

Re: New Libreboot release

Thank you for your efforts anyway. Seems this topic is a bit uneasy for the developers now. Personally I'll stay on Libreboot 2016 so far.

15

Re: New Libreboot release

Thanks for the feedback, thinkbad. Anyway besides: Trying to get OpenBSD running on Libreboot-system (ThinkPad X200). Working so far very good and I think I've got now a the real first tryout. Installed the base-system and using IceWM as environment. Will give more insights later on that: Now compiling Handbrake from ports-tree for OpenBSD 6.8. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

16

Re: New Libreboot release

Sounds great! Recently I almost bought the book, "Absolute Openbsd" to educate myself. By then I thought: maybe I'm jumping the gun? First I'll need to install Milky Way v 0.4 on my second x200... wink smile
By the way, if anyone read it please give some feedback. The advertising of the book sound pretty cool but you know... Besides, the price is not friendly.