301

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

I think we need again to talk about omemo, it's current implementation throughout libsignal-protocol-c. It's removal was and is a decision made out of different reasonings. To be named:

- the library itself is no longer under active development, not meaning that there is no current activity but there is for real no further interest from the maintainers to do anything on it so it is marked as "archived" (https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal-protocol-c) and the current development is only on the implementation throughout Rust (https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal)
- the maintainers are not "friends" of privacy as their main project is enforcing many things from its users likewise the telephone-number and commercial interests for the data from users, it is for example not possible to host any part of the server-infrastructure
- furthermore for a kind of "NGO" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Whisper_Systems) there is no further transparency to be found

We have reacted therefore as there is always more than only one component into this and there is more to be found as "Signal" is not the friend pretending to be for free, libre software. It is just a nice masquerade within and using it as implementation base marks something not very trustworthy. Yes, sources could be forked and are already. But for the moment not really used within projects as possible alternative. Only option is to remove it for the moment until other options are available and possible. And yes, there is always the chance of a fork to be done. But it has to be done, not only talked about it. wink

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

302

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

claws-mail will get an update for 0.4.3.1 while there will be a preserved claws-mail-gtk2 as package also with version 3.19.1.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

303

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Next packages to be removed:

lwm
vtwm
planner

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

304

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

throgh wrote:

Next packages to be removed:

lwm
vtwm
planner

I assume that those don't work?

I tried lwm a while back, I think and if I remember correctly, didn't know how to make it work.

Btw, how do you add applications to tabble? Just curious.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

305

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

For tabble: https://www.rillion.net/tabble/help.html

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

306

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

There is a clear reasoning now for us to stop packaging newer versions of inkscape: With version 1.1 (and further) including the addition of the so-called "social templates" the project has positioned itself. Not only that Twitter / X and also Facebook alike others have clearly shown their disrespect towards privacy and data-protection of users. Especially Twitter / X is clear no longer following democratic principles as the owner Elon Musk is also not showing any respect for democratic points and rights (and I'm really trying to be only mentioning the most common and nice points). Further also: A single person owning a complete platform, stating one and doing another (even complete opposite) and more, while all users have to bow before unknown rules? Even though: Why should a single person ever "own" such a platform? And why do we all need to accept non-free platforms? Answers given already and inkscape concluded for their point.

So this for that: We will include with inkscape-legacy a now older version and keep inkscape from now on with the version packaged here.
Free, libre culture with stating to be for ALL individuals has to respect democratic points, rules and principles. Including non-free platforms, "templates" for them, interfaces towards them and more is nothing any free, libre project should ever take into perspective. There is this line not to cross and several projects have already crossed it.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

307

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

throgh wrote:

vtwm

^ Question, why vtwm will be removed?

308

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Because it had the same issues alike lwm and was in a poor state of packaging for the current moment. Remember that not only the ram-usage is important: Newer versions of vtwm have also more dependencies while other window-managers offer a smaller dependency-tree. You can always add your own package local build on Hyperbola. So the removal was and is also clearly done for having other window-managers with clear less dependencies.

We have also no interest in maintaining packages with Linux-only dependencies. The major interest for Hyperbola is minimalism and pure UNIX-orientation.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

309

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Also to note: It is absolute senseless to patch out non-free parts from projects, just to package them with one concrete version. The next release will conclude again with non-free parts to be removed. So Hyperbola will not conclude with packages to remove non-free parts as done in the past.

It is quite simple: When a package and upstream project is not oriented on free, libre culture, it will be removed without any further warning. It is clear and strict. Doing patches for building, for FHS-compliance and more, that is one thing and absolute okay. But patching out non-free parts growing? Not done any longer. Those packages are put on hold and stale either or removed when really no other solution is in reach.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

310

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Next package being removed:

shaderc

No "presents" from Google needed. wink

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

311

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Recommending the wiki-artcle: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … e_packages
We list therefore for a reason the packages being removed or on hold.

We are living with the results of the assumption that neverending upgrades and additions of features are more helpful than making software persisting, secure and just helpful. So Hyperbola is the opposite of this paradigm and this also means that we will discuss the removal of vulkan at a time. It is one thing of not supported possible features for graphics, another one to redefine all already possible and leaving hardware marked as "no longer supported". This is creating an impossible situation for us all and our environment. Technical innovations with persisting software, not with endless more requirements, endless more dependencies, endless more additions generic. That's not what Hyperbola has made its own course with. We want a minimalistic approach, including also technical emancipation and innovattions at a time.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

312

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

We are a small team and a small community also. The more packages (outside window-managers and smaller applications or helpers) the more work we have to do when finding issues or problems. Reducing the dependency-trees means also making the system in its own approach transparent. Yes, this means Hyperbola is not that attractive for people outside looking for the newest things or technical "toys". But being attractive for "newest" is NOT the approach Hyperbola wants. We are nearing towards the migration for HyperbolaBSD and therefore Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre is doing that work and packages included will be reduced more and more. wink

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

313

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Next to be removed:

vulkan-headers
vulkan-icd-loader
vulkan-intel
vulkan-radeon
vulkan-mesa-layers
vulkan-validation-layers

Reasoning for Radeon should be clear: Without non-free firmware-blobs there is also no further usage. Nevertheless vulkan adds even more complexity we do not need for the moment. A way was found to restructure and reshape mesa without having further problems and therefore nothing will be changed for real as most packages have already no vulkan-support enabled or even got it removed long before.

I will keep this updated when the new PKGBUILD for mesa is there to be viewed on. And yes: It will be very shortened and so following the idea of minimalism. We should be honest with ourself: Vulkan sounds nice so far, but real support is only unfolded with newer hardware and therefore again an issue Hyperbola points out with economic bloated. Also for this reason we have put some packages like "supertuxkart" on hold: Vulkan is clearly NOT following free and libre community-orientation, otherwise shaderc would not be part of newer releases.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

314

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

The new mesa-package without vulkan: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … 4fa5caf757

It has "only" 3 split packages resulting while before more than 6. And we need to be honest: Radeon has NO free firmware-support. NVidia some way but the performance is not always the best depending on the hardware and missing features out of the reasoning that the team behind Nouveau need to figure out all parts alone - and that's very much what they did. All in all: The support for graphics on Vulkan is where needed for? Exactly: Not needed.

Hyperbola has now also support for sdhcp coming: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … b372836933

And onak as own keyserver available: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … ab2da475db

When we state to be for minimalism, we mean it also. This also includes that drivers should not have a long list of unfolding dependencies for running. Vulkan needs this, so we don't and won't include it. Wayland the same: We don't and won't include it.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

315

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

You might like this:

http://fastestcode.org/emwm.html

Also, check out:

http://fastestcode.org/xfile.html

http://fastestcode.org/misc.html

316

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Thanks, but mostly emwm is interesting. For the rest: If there is somebody interested to create packages, feel free and share it with the community. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

317

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

No problem. XMToolbox it's a Motif based menu which is supposed to stay in-place,
maybe a hint on SGI's Irix setup with MWM. XFile it's a very simple Motif
based file manager to accompany that pseudo-DE.

318

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Next package to be removed:

tuxkart

It includes non-free textures and images, copyright-issues would be the point. Another hint that those projects are most tolerated just because they are not taken serious enough. We will remove this package from repositories and will blacklist it also. So tuxkart is to be defined non-free. Hinting also towards our newest wiki-addition: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … c_failures

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

319

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

throgh wrote:

Next package to be removed:

tuxkart

It includes non-free textures and images, copyright-issues would be the point. Another hint that those projects are most tolerated just because they are not taken serious enough. We will remove this package from repositories and will blacklist it also. So tuxkart is to be defined non-free. Hinting also towards our newest wiki-addition: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … c_failures

Huh never would have guessed that tuxkart had non-free textures/images.

Very strange...

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

320

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Yes, you can search in the source-tree for "Pokemon" and "MNM" being used within the level "Olivers Math Class". It is a pity we had to remove that predecessor from supertuxkart, but we have the named other and this had the original level reworked. smile

Thanks to MamãoMutante for giving that hint for "tuxkart".

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

321

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

We are working on the following packages sidewise:

zathura (finally adding)
xonotic (getting an update and rework)
darkplaces (possible new addition as 3D-engine)

We are also enhancing xenocara just a bit as there is an addition with editres we'd like to take into.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

322

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

What is the reason for adding zathura? The original rejection was based on awkward dependences, and I do not see how this has changed.

323

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Simple but clear said: zathura was now again evaluated and we found ways to build that package without the problematic dependencies. So that's most the problem for many others: Most of the reasonable packages are there, but then there are big issues with one or two additional ones. That was the same for zathura. But to say: Building is not the same alike working. So for the moment it just builds and ends with success in a package.

Hyperbola is not only adding and also intense testing afterwards. So when the resulting package is also working fine, we can finally add it. As stated: "We are working on that" not "we are adding it now".

Also to explain in that case what dependency was here the point: It was texlive and libsynctex as resulting library. The first runs about 1,5 years ago for zathura were done under other circumstances and knowledge-base. This has changed and now I was able to circumvent the texlive-issue also as the project-website is stating that this is not really needed. Nevertheless I'm thinking to report upstream that their build-parameters should be a bit reordered making it a bit more clear how to build without texlive. I hope this helps to understand better now! And zathura is clearly oriented minimalist, so leaving it was from the beginning a decision we would like to have corrected.

When the run-tests for zathura going successful, we are going to add it as usual. If the package and application is not running, we do not see need adding it. And we do not see gtk for example as awkward dependency. wink

It is surely to understand that everybody has a different vision and perspective, but one last point: Please let's work together on Hyperbola. If there are critical points about zathura, add them. To point on a new article in our wiki: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … ble_system

So that's the dependency-tree for zathura on Hyperbola:

    desktop-file-utils
    file
    girara
    sqlite
    zathura-cb (optional) - Comic book support
    zathura-djvu (optional) - DjVu support
    zathura-pdf-poppler (optional) - PDF support using Poppler
    zathura-ps (optional) - PostScript support
    appstream-glib (make)
    check (make)
    meson (make)
    ninja (make)
    python-sphinx (make)

The package girara is the only one being added and it has same way no dependency further added, all is there. And zathura is same way ported: https://openports.pl/path/textproc/zathura/core

We do not want to go for a sovereignty of interpretation what "software freedom" and "minimalism" should be. And the meaning of "personal freedom" has always to be seen in the relation of "freedom of others" same way. So if people in IRC make a rational discussion about zathura as possible addition and the project is not going against our guidelines, we evaluate for sure any time again. Just that we do not want to add uncountable more packages as said since 0.4.3.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

324

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Zathura looks insteresting as a DJVU reader. Not as "good" as djview4 because the later has good contrast options, but for a quick read it's useful. As a policy I convert PostScript files into PDF 1.4 and then DJVU because in theory a PostScript file should be dealt is if it were propietary software, but DJVU it's a raster format with prerendered images bound and optionally some text interleaved.

325

Re: [Hyperbola] Going the way and packaging, the roadmap after 0.4

Thanks, I will keep this updated in the next hours - let's say 14 hours or so because there is a night between for sure. wink
When I have more and clear results I will post again if zathura is finally ready for being added. We have surely no interest to add broken applications into Hyperbola as there was much optimization work between 0.4 and 0.4.3.1 now.

So no dirty packages in any point.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!