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Topic: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

i havent posted here in a while--

my apologies for my previous couple of posts. ive written about its motivations (not in this article) and the points i was trying to make, extensively.

stallman recently went to microsoft, and this has resulted in a lot of speculation as to why. techrights is covering the topic extensively, and ive responded to it in my own words.

of particular relevance is what it think (spoiler: its positive) will likely become of hyperbola. im a very tough critic, very difficult to please, but i mention guix and hyperbola as being important to the future of the fsf in this article. above all, it makes the point that getting stallmans legacy right is crucial to freedom itself. i believe this, and that it is not an exaggeration. getting stallman wrong, quite simply means less freedom. thats the main point of smearing him. ive watched people do that for years, and i dont pull any punches here.

http://techrights.org/2019/09/06/rms-track-record/

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

freemedia wrote:

i havent posted here in a while--

my apologies for my previous couple of posts. ive written about its motivations (not in this article) and the points i was trying to make, extensively.

stallman recently went to microsoft, and this has resulted in a lot of speculation as to why. techrights is covering the topic extensively, and ive responded to it in my own words.

of particular relevance is what it think (spoiler: its positive) will likely become of hyperbola. im a very tough critic, very difficult to please, but i mention guix and hyperbola as being important to the future of the fsf in this article. above all, it makes the point that getting stallmans legacy right is crucial to freedom itself. i believe this, and that it is not an exaggeration. getting stallman wrong, quite simply means less freedom. thats the main point of smearing him. ive watched people do that for years, and i dont pull any punches here.

http://techrights.org/2019/09/06/rms-track-record/


I am sure he has a good motive for going to microsoft. I think he probably spoke to correct microsoft. However, I also agree even showing up there is a questionable thing to do.

I don't know what to expect regarding microsoft or RMS, but I hope he knows what he is doing.

;/

ps, yeah he does have a strange track record, especially regarding redhat's poettering software. 

DBUS, (Security risk/bloat)
NetworkManager (although it doesn't suck as much as some of his creations)
Pulseaudio (Same as above)
Systemd (Really, really bad.)
Elogind (not sure what this is)


The list goes further I am sure, but I don't know the other stuff.

My point being, avoid systemd like the plague and poettering in general including the above if possible.

NetworkManager I have mixed feelings about though but yeah, we need an alternative to that... ;/

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

The article is very interesting and has many points I would absolutely aggree in: The main problem is that even the talk is not the best sign at all because this shows that Microsoft would be on the right track now. They are not, perhaps they will never be. And I just don't believe in such marketing like "We love Open-Source!". The day they release a newer Windows-version complete in form of a "source code"-package included a Copyleft-license and DirectX to the Wine-project, that day will never come but this would be the one I perhaps starting up thinking about a "change" in the mind of this "company".

As already noted above by zapper: I hope Mr. Stallman knows what he is doing and he has some good reasoning showing up at Microsoft for a talk. Otherwise this is some really bad signal at all. But we human beings could do mistakes, ideas, principles and idealistic ways are not damaged because people get on other tracks. Even though there is damage made in the last years with all those participants like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and also Canonical and Red Hat doing that. As the article points out: Projects like Hyperbola or Guix could get even greater importance at all while others failed: Not forking systemd, pulseaudio and rethink major dependencies? Great problems showing up and will do even greater damage to the ecosystem of "free, libre software" at all. And just my personal: Even if this is not intentional done by players like Microsoft, they won't stop doing that. This feigned "love" for the failed concept of "open-source". And the "open-source" idea is already damaged, without being "free and libre"!

Regarding Mr. Poettering: I think the real bad project at all was and is systemd and all of its dependencies. And this thoughts coming up with it: Hey its free, take it or leave the world of Linux! Why are you even complain? And who tells us this is staying that way? Who is telling us that this is not one more coffin nail into "free, libre software"? Exactly nobody, just those words.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

The fact of RMS speaking at M$ reminds me of Matthew 9:10–13

Object oriented programs are offered as alternatives to correct ones ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

5 (edited by zapper 2019-09-10 10:39:21)

Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

koszko wrote:

The fact of RMS speaking at M$ reminds me of Matthew 9:10–13

Yes, except that RMS isn't a perfect benevolent soul. He is good, don't get me wrong, but he has his share of flaws even with his campaign for free software/freedom.

Systemd and poettering crap, being one of the things that he hasn't addressed at all.

I do not hate networkmanager btw, but then again, we do need more alternatives. ;0

Irony that anything poettering created works at all without being crappy. 

Especially considering pulseaudio and systemd are so bad.

That aside, RMS shouldn't sugarcoat what microsoft is doing at all...

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

zapper wrote:

Systemd and poettering crap, being one of the things that he hasn't addressed at all.

That also bothered me for some time. Now, reading your post,  I suddenly got an idea why this might be. RMS is an old-date hacker - he spends most of the time in tty, views most of the web pages there, etc. And at the same time most of the ppl around (especially non-technical ppl) are using fancy desktops, playing video games in HD, etc. For he's not interested in that stuff, he only insists on it all being free. PERHAPS he views the init battle the same way and doesn't want to promote or fight any of the init systems as long as all are free-licensed and don't track their users? Still, I don't know for sure...

Anyways, RMS is a strong advocate of freesw, devoting all he has into that. Perhaps it's other ppl's job to help init-freedom? You can't have one person everywhere smile

zapper wrote:

I do not hate networkmanager btw, but then again, we do need more alternatives. ;0

I tried using wicd for some time and it would lose the connection all the time on certain networks - that's why I had to go back to using nm.

zapper wrote:

That aside, RMS shouldn't sugarcoat what microsoft is doing at all...

I might be wrong here, but from what I see, most ppl in computer science don't consider his authority (at least ppl I study with, our lecturers, etc.) and ppl who do, are already freesw enthusiasts, who are not going to trust M$ anyway (well, I consider you 3 writing in this topic an example of that). Or maybe I just don't know the right communities?

Object oriented programs are offered as alternatives to correct ones ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

zapper wrote:

DBUS, (Security risk/bloat)
NetworkManager (although it doesn't suck as much as some of his creations)
Pulseaudio (Same as above)
Systemd (Really, really bad.)
Elogind (not sure what this is)

systemd was created by taking various projects and sticking them together. obviously, the way they work together is new (and i dont like it either.)

some new things that are designed to work without systemd (in a true modular fashion) use elogind to provide expected functionality. elogind is based on the relevant part of systemd, it is technically independent (as far as i know.) devuan is moving towards using it, and it wont surprise me if hyperbola does in the future. either way, good luck with that.

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

freemedia wrote:

elogind is based on the relevant part of systemd, it is technically independent (as far as i know.) devuan is moving towards using it, and it wont surprise me if hyperbola does in the future. either way, good luck with that.

It's been there almost from the beginning: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/packag … og/elogind

Elogind does seat/user/session management. There used to be a framework called Consolekit, that could be used instead... but it is not actively maintained hmm I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly, this stuff is needed to make things like "logout" button on the desktop work.

Object oriented programs are offered as alternatives to correct ones ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

koszko wrote:
freemedia wrote:

elogind is based on the relevant part of systemd, it is technically independent (as far as i know.) devuan is moving towards using it, and it wont surprise me if hyperbola does in the future. either way, good luck with that.

It's been there almost from the beginning: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/packag … og/elogind

Elogind does seat/user/session management. There used to be a framework called Consolekit, that could be used instead... but it is not actively maintained hmm I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly, this stuff is needed to make things like "logout" button on the desktop work.

We have plans to migrate from elogind to ConsoleKit for Milky Way v0.4 by including the OpenBSD stability/security patches. See our TODO about it for further details.

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

Emulatorman wrote:
koszko wrote:
freemedia wrote:

elogind is based on the relevant part of systemd, it is technically independent (as far as i know.) devuan is moving towards using it, and it wont surprise me if hyperbola does in the future. either way, good luck with that.

It's been there almost from the beginning: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/packag … og/elogind

Elogind does seat/user/session management. There used to be a framework called Consolekit, that could be used instead... but it is not actively maintained hmm I might be wrong, but if I recall correctly, this stuff is needed to make things like "logout" button on the desktop work.

We have plans to migrate from elogind to ConsoleKit for Milky Way v0.4 by including the OpenBSD stability/security patches. See our TODO about it for further details.


Don't you mean Consolekit2? smile

Btw, how much better is it then elogind?

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

11 (edited by koszko 2019-09-26 21:06:53)

Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

zapper wrote:

Don't you mean Consolekit2? smile

Some OSes do actually package ConsoleKit2 under the name ConsoleKit. It makes little difference, since CK2 is a continuation of CK (it uses its codebase). I don't think Emulatorman's post was a mistake, especially that (as one can check themselves) OpenBSD (and pretty much every other OS without elogind these days) uses CK2. Well, thanks to Zapper's inquisitiveness, all this shall be immediately clear to every1 visiting this thread smile

zapper wrote:

Btw, how much better is it then elogind?

Well, logind is systemd's daemon. Elogind is logind made into standalone package, that should work with any init software... but it's still a part of a force-pushed ecosystem and it's dependent on upstream, hence controlled (to some extent) by systemd devs.

ConsoleKit is the toolkit, that used to do (e)logind's job before systemd emerged - it's independent of Lennard smile


__________EDIT SO AS  NOT TO DOUBLE POST__________


Here's what response I got after sending a thankGNU to rms:

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I appreciate your moral support, but there is also work to be done.  I
have been hit, but not knocked out, and my campaign for free software
is not over.

What is needed now is to convince the FSF to stick with the principles
I set, and avoid harmful changes.

If you support my vision for the Free Software Foundation, you could
(1) join as an associate member (if you aren't already) and (2) tell
the organization that you want it to stay true to the way I have led
it.  You can write to info@fsf.org.  I suggest keeping it short!

If you can't afford to join, you could still state your views
to the FSF, but joining will give more weight to whatever you say.

Aside from that, you could speak up in mailing lists and discussions
(don't bother with Twitter), to inform people that the articles
misrepresented my views, then help people understand by showing and
explaining my actual words.

Either one, or both, could make a difference.  So thank you for
whatever you do.


--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Object oriented programs are offered as alternatives to correct ones ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

Free software as envisioned by RMS is about free software philosophy. Promoting such to Microsoft at Research Center says that RMS does have balls and is just a good thing that he has done, one amont many others.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-soft … this-week/

He was also in Russia promoting free software philosophy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCh8EcBrptA

Please remember that Linux kernel would never be free without Linus hearing that talk by RMS at Linus's university.

If anybody wish to do something for freedom in software, do such talk yourself.

Spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt on Internet is not useful.

GNU project and also every free system distribution as sponsored by FSF shall be apolitical, and shall stick only to free software philosophy and free software politics and nothing else.

GNU system maintainers, like Hyperbola maintainers shall be themselves in their expressions on Hyperbola pages remain apolitical and not take any side of any kind of politics, including feminism, or whatever one thinks that one shall support for the time being, as those are not GNU and free software related issues and are rather dividing community and not bringing people together.

Before some days I had problem with Hyperbola and Emulatorman will remember that. I had a serious problem as I was in business meetings and I was thinking that my sound has to be repaired urgently. So I went to Guix IRC channel to see if I could quickly change to Guix. As a GNU user I was surprised to be faced with some feminism politics stuff, that I neither support neither not support, it is simply irrelevant to me as I do not wish to be involved in such politics.

I was faced with feminism stuff which has nothing with GNU project.

If one reverts to Red Cross organization, Red Cross is not asking you if you support feminism or not support, or if you are nazi or anti fashist, those issues shall remain equally away and stay out of GNU projects and any FSF sponsored system distributions.

Instead of getting help with the system, as many people depend on my system to have their own lives, as I am to pay my people salaries and their expenses, I have been faced with feminism stuff. It was more important for Ludovic Courtès to defame and slander RMS without facts, then to promote free software. He has no speech nor mentioning about free software on his own website, and is not free software activists, he is programmer, but not activist.

I really hope that maintainers of Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre are to remain apolitical in every other aspect but to free software on Hyperbola pages and GNU pages. Their private views on third party websites are their own, but keep Hyperbola friendly, just in accordance to Hyperbola code of conduct which is written in much better manner than Guix.

Keep straight to free software philosophy.

I am also of opinion that if any free system leader cannot stay apolitical, that such is not fit to run GNU software project which is providing software for everybody for whatever reasons, see freedom zero.

Let us not judge people by their opinions, let us respect RMS opinions and stick to facts, as he is just person like everybody else, with the difference that he has done many good things for this world and freedom in computing.

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Re: article: getting stallman wrong means getting the 21st century wrong

jmarciano wrote:

Free software as envisioned by RMS is about free software philosophy. Promoting such to Microsoft at Research Center says that RMS does have balls and is just a good thing that he has done, one amont many others.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-soft … this-week/

(...]

I don't think it is very helpful using articles like this. No offense but you find even the wrong description inside: "Open-Source". The opposite of "free software" when we have a closer look onto both. And being apolitical is some kind of illusion from my point of view. Free software itself is a clear political statement!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!