1 (edited by throgh 2019-11-12 08:57:41)

Topic: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well, it seems some people just tend to disagree and play their own "campaign" against Hyperbola. Instead of the wording Live and let live! it is just again more of the same reading: Accusations for having Hyperbola taking a snapshot from Arch Linux and enforcing their software onto users. And I find this very disrespectful, a subjective view from my side:

  • Hyperbola took just one snapshot back in 2017 nothing more nothing less and other distributions do this also taking from Debian or Ubuntu. What message is this? Just some kind of paraphrasing strawman because comparing those distributions is a big fail about the different approaches.

  • Exactly where is the way to enforce anything? Hyperbola is using OpenRC for now and there are plans to integrate more INIT-systems in the upcoming version 0.4 - looking here for s6 and here for shepherd. And this discussion is absolutely nonsense, even those INIT-systems are not integrated with version 0.4. By the way: Does anybody enforce the usage of Hyperbola? No, but it is just ONE distribution besides Parabola and Dragora onto the FSF-endorsed distributions using another INIT-system - having gnewsense outside because of unknown state and further planning.

  • The team behind is doing a very good job with own visions and there is nothing wrong to remove identified packages or integrate alternatives like LibreSSL, Xenocara and sndio. Even this is one outstanding position when looking after most other distributions just using the known framework consisting of systemd, dbus and pulseaudio. So what's the problem about having an own vision? Remembering even here: This was just one, initial snapshot and since this point many things were changed.

  • Freedom and privacy are not just a playground and a little game where to decide what is fitting and what is not. Many projects tend more and more just into the direction of being generic "open-source" which is the opposite free software and when this is named attacks will emerge immediately. What kind of childish game is this? Having problems or criticism with Hyperbola? Name it here for discussion and feedback instead doing it from comments and postings under articles and forum-threads elsewhere. Gnome is integrating proprietary services for example. That's no theory it is reality! Or is it about giveaway of freedom regarding the pragmatic approach and pricing?

In the end those criticicism or better to call attacks are just not needed. I've got it so far: Some people just don't want to hear and read about alternatives, getting really personal instead of being most objective about it. And this cannot be the way about software-freedom, acting like there cannot be alternatives, reducing the works of others, of even whole communities. Where is the problem? Just follow Live and let live! instead those harsh attacks and simplifications. There are people here not willing to follow the major way of systemd and corporations behind the generic Linux-kernel. You don't want to hear about this? Fine, ignoring is okay but the reduction of outstanding work being done is just impolite. wink
Free culture is about acceptance and not some agenda regarding pragmatism: Mozilla has more than just one problem regarding privacy? Red Hat has another own vision about GNU/Linux? And we should not forget about Oracle or Microsoft doing the same. Yes, removing Java, removing Mono is needed because they are not independent and ignoring all those first named issues is a leftover for further questions. Just talking about free culture is therefore all around this: Being mostly objective, reading through information given and then talk about.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

2 (edited by zapper 2019-11-12 02:45:28)

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Yes, it is definitely true...

People are not reading the wiki or the todo list and don't understand the reasons given for why packages are being removed...

Also, straight forks just suck. Deblobbing and no other changes = crap.

But yeah, the changes made to Hyperbola are pretty awesome. I am tired of corporations and I don't want them to control everything to do with linux.  I knew home was bad of course, but I didn't realize they were pushing proprietary crap. Well, unless systemd is considered proprietary... its license isn't proprietary, though its purpose is the same sadly... in a more creative yet destructive way.

Redhat and corporations like it, need to be more respectful and keep their hands off of gnu/linux and such, at least when it comes to breaking backwards compatibility and making bloated software. If they want to make stuff, fine... but don't overengineer it so that you are corrupting a good idea with your filth...

All in all I agree with you.  Security and Freedom are only being followed by a select few distros... ;/

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

3

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

zapper wrote:

Yes, it is definitely true...



People are not reading the wiki or the todo list and don't understand the reasons given for why packages are being removed...



Also, straight forks just suck. Deblobbing and no other changes = crap.



But yeah, the changes made to Hyperbola are pretty awesome. I am tired of corporations and I don't want them to control everything to do with linux.  I knew home was bad of course, but I didn't realize they were pushing proprietary crap. Well, unless systemd is considered proprietary... its license isn't proprietary, though its purpose is the same sadly... in a more creative yet destructive way.



Redhat and corporations like it, need to be more respectful and keep their hands off of gnu/linux and such, at least when it comes to breaking backwards compatibility and making bloated software. If they want to make stuff, fine... but don't overengineer it so that you are corrupting a good idea with your filth...



All in all I agree with you.  Security and Freedom are only being followed by a select few distros... ;/



The problem at all is the criticism brought up towards Hyperbola and the vision behind: Some people throw this into one general point being to radical. Others brought up that whole programming languages will be removed (nodejs, Java etc.). And then there is also the date of some packages. But the question is: Why just criticism without discussions here in the forums? No real feedback. And I don't want to compare the different distributions, but I find the whole behavior just unfriendly and impolite, I don't even understand it because Hyperbola has just a complete other vision and setup in comparison of other distributions and therefore no need for such attacking in general. hmm

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

4

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well it is mostly because lots of people that criticize have got limited or no brains at all...
And it is who linux users are these days as well, they can only criticize and nothing else
People who can only take and give nothng in return are just as useless.

5 (edited by throgh 2020-03-16 00:18:43)

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Please stop speaking about "usage" of human beings, that's not helping and I deny to say that people are useless (we are not talking about "objects" and human beings should not and never be compared to that or even put into stereotypes or labels like "useful" or "useless" - that's very impolite in the end and misanthropic), but the problem stays: It is the ignorance in general instead of acceptance having colourful environments. This would be possible with GNU/Linux and with BSD-derivates. Building an own operating-system, optimized for the concurrent workflow as you wish. But it is also about the feelings coming up with havng the knowledge to build and modify the personalized operating system: Not being chosen, just to spread knowledge, spread the sources and of course give more insights into the system. Not talking about videos on proprietary platforms like YouTube. More talking about real help having older equipment refreshed, showing that there is no need for buying the newest hardware. There are so many aspects about this kind of discussion, starting with labeling of others and ending with very dark, sinister thoughts while people having big problems with freedom, privacy and many more these days.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well I don't have a lot to say about this except one pattern I also noticed occaisionally within Trisquel users is people tend to make some criticisms, like a big one was that Trisquel was not up to date enough and that Ubuntu had more up to date versions of several packages, as an example, and then say a lot of very harsh things about the people making Trisquel often going so far as to say "this is why libre software will never work" or something along those lines.

And regardless of whether or not they had a legitimate criticism they just totally neglect to acknowledge the fact that someone is making the operating system presumably without pay, and with limited time and resources.

No matter what you can say about Trisquel, it is an extremely valuable thing for lots of people with privacy concerns who don't have experience with computers. Yeah there are problems with it and there are reasons I switched to Hyberbola but I always wanted to say to these critics "if you care so much about it, then you would be at least trying to be productive, because there isn't really an alternative to Trisquel right now and the people here are doing the best they can."

I think this is a similar attitude as to what y'all are mentioning here. I think it really just boils down to people getting worked up for some reason or another and reading something online and just venting without really thinking. They don't really want to change their ways even though they have the idea that they should try. They tend to feel attacked somehow by Trisquel or Hyperbola or whatever just like some people seem to feel attacked by the mere mention of Linux. Like you say you use Linux and then they go into an unsolicited rant about why they love their Macbook. Or maybe they really are just frustrated by something and they don't know how to fix it.

But I think as long as the operating system continues to stick to the principles it clearly lays out and as long as the developers do their best to make things functional and respond to concerns of the users to some basic level, this bad publicity won't do too much harm. I have read several comments on that It's Foss interview about Hyperbola where people were attacking Hyperbola's idea to move to BSD. I'm sure you're all aware.

But if Hyperbola switches to BSD and everything works like we want it to.... those people will look silly because they were just wrong.

7

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Speaking of "useless" people, Throgh I really appreciate your sentiments. I am so happy to see people like you in the world.

However, I do feel useless. I watch in awe as you all work on Hyperbola and I feel like I can't do much to help due to my lack of experience in programming etc.

Do you think there are some jobs that could be done by someone like me, for instance, who has a lot of experience with Linux and who uses Hyperbola, but isn't goign to start fixing bugs or helping fork the BSD kernel or whatever?

Like is there something someone should be doing to combat these "unnessesary discussions"?

8

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Hello there, rinakra: Thanks for your feedback, but I have to first make something to correct. I don't work here at Hyperbola and I'm also part of the community as you and everyone else. The problem itself is mentioned as we as human beings often don't look behind the curtain. There is much to see at the git repository as André and Márcio work really hard giving more into HyperbolaBSD and HyperBK.

Personally I want to give also something back as I'm first a member here as you are. smile
So I do some experiments, some work for giving back, tipps and experiences with help and more. That brings me to the major point:

rinakra wrote:

Do you think there are some jobs that could be done by someone like me, for instance, who has a lot of experience with Linux and who uses Hyperbola, but isn't goign to start fixing bugs or helping fork the BSD kernel or whatever?

We can do many things. Bringing for example some packages here into Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre as you can also find a mirror of the repositories on LibreGit, where we as community can help. We can help with donations, making also something besides perhaps with Libreboot-devices? We can support the team and this also means we can support us here as peergroup, as community.

rinakra wrote:

Like is there something someone should be doing to combat these "unnessesary discussions"?

Which also means: We can spread the word that Hyperbola is done by people for people, not by some companies or interest-groups. It is really free software, open for everyone. There is so much to do and help the team, perhaps also doing some artwork for example? Some nice backgrouds and wallpapers for installation? I like it here from the start as this little community with this big project is really clear onto the principles and also creating own packages, not only making something known before more "kind of free". Be welcome, be part of it on any way you prefer!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9

Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Actually artwork might be something I can do with my Wacom tablet! I will work on it.