101

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

We should be honest: The state of graphical interfaces is not the best under GNU/Linux. KDE and Gnome? Forget about them. While KDE is ongoing with Qt and their "problems", Gnome is more or less not only bloatware, but also ignorant about systemd. LxQt has failed for now being safe for lower-sized hardware and consuming too much memory for now and Xfce is running behind the failures of GTK3. So what's next? Cinnamon? Same as with Gnome. Deepin? Bloated and concluding not to be trusted as bringing their own "application-storage" full with proprietary software.

What's left?

LXDE, IceWM, DWM, JWM, CWM and all those desktop-environments being independent. Yes, they are not that full with "eye-candy", but they are usable and perhaps it is better throwing all those others out of the repositories as they will break the principles of free software sooner or later.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

102 (edited by throgh 2020-04-14 10:12:02)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

You know that F-Droid stock repositories are not compliant with the GNU Free System distribution guidelines? Replicant has removed F-Droid in the next Release-Candidate 6.0 0004 RC1. Reading more here in the listings: https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/r … viceStatus

So much for the so-called "free as in freedom" of those alternatives as they already include unfree services and applications relying on that for example here: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/

This has to stop and being marked as the decision of the users, not instead coming up from offered repositories. Applications and services have to be really free and open. Everything is the "freedom of the user" deciding otherwise when installing. Without being strict onto principles we are in the risk to loose everything: Freedom, privacy and security about having something undefined! Android is NOT free as in freedom and needs much work being "free".

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

103

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

More to read about the mentioned issue as F-Droid and its stock repositories being NOT compliant to the GNU FSDG: https://redmine.replicant.us/issues/1878

Another example about Android and its problems with false compromises: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.git … yalpstore/
Also an example about "Open-Source" and the difference being free software.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

104

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Why Mono should have no further room in libre distributions? First of all it is really not free at all and have enough problems coming up with it regarding licensing and patents as Microsoft. For a closer look into: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=274

But there is more as games or better to say game-engines like OpenRA don't respect freedom. Why this now? They are using Github and even implementations based on the engine-code make more usage of all those anti-features - no link from me as I don't want to give more impressions on unfree software. If you want lookup this yourself, just search for Fractured Realms. Being believable means also being strict onto freedom, privacy and security. We have no time for making false compromises!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

105

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

throgh wrote:

We should be honest: The state of graphical interfaces is not the best under GNU/Linux. KDE and Gnome? Forget about them. While KDE is ongoing with Qt and their "problems", Gnome is more or less not only bloatware, but also ignorant about systemd. LxQt has failed for now being safe for lower-sized hardware and consuming too much memory for now and Xfce is running behind the failures of GTK3. So what's next? Cinnamon? Same as with Gnome. Deepin? Bloated and concluding not to be trusted as bringing their own "application-storage" full with proprietary software.

What's left?

LXDE, IceWM, DWM, JWM, CWM and all those desktop-environments being independent. Yes, they are not that full with "eye-candy", but they are usable and perhaps it is better throwing all those others out of the repositories as they will break the principles of free software sooner or later.

Draco Desktop is another option actually, only thing is, for the time being to use certian features it still requires dbus. 

But I suppose if you can convince the author of this repo:

https://github.com/rodlie/draco

to make it usable without dbus...

PS btw, he says he might be willing, but its not on his immediate agenda.

But yeah, he might be willing later on.

That being said, I would love it if he would make this usable without dbus:

https://github.com/rodlie/powerkit

Aka, so it could work with HyperbolaBSD. smile

Anywho I was getting off track,

LXDE, XFCE, Draco Desktop,

Those desktops are decent.

LXQT kind of sucks to be honest though, for a few reasons, one of which being, its ugly.

Of course that's just my opinion, but yeah...

I dislike bloatware myself.  I detest gnome3 kde and cinnamon and even mate is kind of meh...

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

106

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

throgh wrote:

You know that F-Droid stock repositories are not compliant with the GNU Free System distribution guidelines? Replicant has removed F-Droid in the next Release-Candidate 6.0 0004 RC1. Reading more here in the listings: https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/r … viceStatus

So much for the so-called "free as in freedom" of those alternatives as they already include unfree services and applications relying on that for example here: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.schabi.newpipe/

This has to stop and being marked as the decision of the users, not instead coming up from offered repositories. Applications and services have to be really free and open. Everything is the "freedom of the user" deciding otherwise when installing. Without being strict onto principles we are in the risk to loose everything: Freedom, privacy and security about having something undefined! Android is NOT free as in freedom and needs much work being "free".

F-Droid at least mentions which services are non-free or have anti-features, which is more than I can say for gaggle aka google and their services. ;/

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

107

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

zapper wrote:

F-Droid at least mentions which services are non-free or have anti-features, which is more than I can say for gaggle aka google and their services. ;/

Of course, more or less this is better. But when having strict rules this would be not necessary. Same with snap or flatpak: All of them may be some kind of "free", but more an illusion of freedom itself. That's a pity! sad

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

108 (edited by throgh 2020-04-21 18:00:25)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

zapper wrote:

Draco Desktop is another option actually, only thing is, for the time being to use certian features it still requires dbus. 

But I suppose if you can convince the author of this repo:

https://github.com/rodlie/draco

to make it usable without dbus...

PS btw, he says he might be willing, but its not on his immediate agenda.

But yeah, he might be willing later on.

That being said, I would love it if he would make this usable without dbus:

https://github.com/rodlie/powerkit

Aka, so it could work with HyperbolaBSD. smile

Anywho I was getting off track,

LXDE, XFCE, Draco Desktop,

Those desktops are decent.

LXQT kind of sucks to be honest though, for a few reasons, one of which being, its ugly.

Of course that's just my opinion, but yeah...

I dislike bloatware myself.  I detest gnome3 kde and cinnamon and even mate is kind of meh...

Thanks, but as I've written earlier here: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic … 1886#p1886
We are in absolutely need for independent services and infrastructure. I've tried this out myself along for about two years making some kind of independent video-hosting. You can imagine: Not the most people used the alternative as it was not comparable to YouTube and many more, not that kind of full with "entertainment", not that outstanding user-experience and much more. Just from the roots done, but this is exactly what we need when looking all around in these days. Replicant without F-Droid is of course not the best but when looking at the applications: Even the ones being free licensed under the GPL can be found on proprietary places and that's the point: What is changed when free, libre software is used on that places? Most people make it easy and use them as some kind of addendum. When bored the software ends up in the trash and is ignored. No independent places are done until now, no own infrastructure - okay, there are some first starting points like F-Droid but we need therefore being completely independent from places like Github, YouTube and much more. That's the problem and the same with many desktop-environments. When loading Gnome and KDE without hardware-acceleration this gets fast very complicated. GNU/Linux was once known for being usable with old devices. But the state now is not getting better as even more people want to get rid of x86-codebase, throwing 32bit out of the way. Being believable means also being respectful with ressources, respectful with information and not that kind of pragmatism.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

109

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

And another insight as even more distributions get lost more and more over time: Either they're loosing focus or they get lost because of interest. Staying into for now are just Hyperbola, Dragora, GuixSD, Parabola and Trisquel. The ones with closest principles are just Hyperbola and Dragora as even GuixSD accepts way too much of everything else, even Rust, Mono and Java. Well if this is the future of "libre software" I'd just stay here. And even if this got lost, I'd rather host own mirrors and getting more into development above time.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

110

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Welcome to the dependencies of bloated packages: You want a toolset for burning CDs or DVDs? Well, go on there is nothing to see here as k3b is depending on libpulse.so.0 - whatever the reason maybe. And Brasero? Okay, needs avahi and gvfs. Way too much dependencies to really bloated projects in general. Maybe we should talk again about being believable? Small and robust operating-system means exactly this and it can look also pretty without relying on those bloatware.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

111 (edited by throgh 2020-04-29 00:05:28)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Free software getting more and more on sideways: Of course fixing problems and security issues is at hand one major goal. But when looking after some newer projects, their dependencies and their development cycle we should having a more clear discussions if this represents "freedom, security and privacy". The problem itself? Well, being more and more dependent on frameworks with absolute versioning on the edge. Meaning after even some months libraries are just too old to build and therefore resulting applications and projects are impossible for further access. The result are even faster development cycles overall: Either only bigger distributions getting into this or the model "rolling release" comes at hand with more or less doubtful privacy as enough projects include proprietary services like Discord and more.

Seriously, is this the so-called vision of the future? Just "some kind of free" is not "free as in freedom" as this includes also freedom of choice. Where is it? Can I choose not to install some package because I don't want to use it? Where is the GNU-mentalitiy, having everything optional to compile and run? More or less the GNU-stack is becoming more and more dependant on frameworks and false languages like Rust or node.js. Reading here for esample the problems with Rust: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … edom_flaws

Full with freedom flaws and nevertheless there are thoughts building onto this more and more. Tryout to compile IceCat without Rust: Impossible! So this is not being believable and more about big flaws being just accepted. What's next? Java is full with freedom issues, Rust is the same, node.js got more into Github and Mono is a bad joke. They all are not "free as in freedom" and we want to build more onto this base? Stop this and think about it.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

112

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

throgh wrote:
zapper wrote:

F-Droid at least mentions which services are non-free or have anti-features, which is more than I can say for gaggle aka google and their services. ;/

Of course, more or less this is better. But when having strict rules this would be not necessary. Same with snap or flatpak: All of them may be some kind of "free", but more an illusion of freedom itself. That's a pity! sad

I agree with you, as for what you say below,

notabug.org and gitea.io

Are good, well gogs.io might also be good, its definitely better than github and gitlab.  smile

But I disagree on one thing, if the software is libre, regardless of where it is hosted, it should be used as long as it is A: has all five freedoms including the one where you don't have to use it if you don't want to, ie no forced vendor lock-in.

But also, unless it has any extreme shitty like security issues or patent issues then I see no issue with using it. 

Openrc, Draco Desktop, Powerkit, all these are fine in my book, same with Lumina Desktop.

No offense, but I think this is a rare moment where I even feel like what your suggesting might be a tad too extreme. 

That being said, I agree with you on most issues.  But I don't think Emulatorman or Hyperbola Devs would agree with your thoughts on this.

If I am misunderstanding however, feel free to tell me. 

Incidently, github has a new page that interests me greatly:

https://balthazar.space/wiki/Balthazar

https://github.com/balthazar-space/balhazar

This idea is based on eoma68, but I am hoping it will be executed way better than eoma68 was. 

It looks like they are doing more planning, so yeah. I think its possible. Also, its going to be based on RISC-V!

Anywho, You may want to look at both of those pages, particularly, the top one, do some exploring aka. wink

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

113 (edited by throgh 2020-04-29 10:10:41)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Thanks for your thoughts, but the idea behind the call to delete github is just to build a more decentalized web and infrastructure. I don't think this is extreme as it is the basic idea of freedom itself and I don't get it why so many projects jump on this train as it is driving in the complete wrong direction. Software itself may be libre for now, but what about the future? And that's the point counting as Microsoft just pretends to "love open-source". They just do the opposite. There are small steps right done!

Yes, I don't think Microsoft itself is doing all of this intentional or there is some "evil masterplan behind". But it is about money and the good people there have no further chance when it comes to this point. And we also don't have any further chance when it comes to this point as the projects itself. So better getting away from centralized infrastructure and some kind of cloud-services. Better getting away from some false illusions. You may disagree me here and I don't want to be agreed here. Perhaps I'm completely wrong in my thoughts? Just have to look at Gnome for now. They host their own infrastructure, good thing. But they already make false compromises and that's the point I'm talking about. An example as picture below:

https://framapic.org/PgVU7xWhS6FQ/sa9SWpDcUm39.jpg

Same with the examples regarding F-Droid I have given above and the reasoning why exactly Replicant had given up to distribute the application as integral component. Same with all the flaws given in the wiki like emulators, Chrome / Chromium and Rust!

It's not that Microsoft / Github will took all free, libre projects overnight, it's about getting dependent on centralized infrastructure more and more overtime. It's a long run! And same with projects on Qt as the company behind is also defined over income and money, not about principles and ideals. Where is the fork? And what bout the future itself? Is it extreme having thoughts about this? Well, there are enough warnings. And I don't tend to listen / follow some conspiracy theories. But being dependent on centralized infrastructure can't be good. Nobody needs to agree with me here at this point, but I think it is just to simple at all describing this as "extreme". smile We could "remove" those freedom-flaws, but being honest: How long would this be possible? And is it really worth the time to do it again and again with every new version of Gnome and KDE Plasma for example? How many people have interest in doing this and what about people just giving up? The (peer)group gets smaller afterwards. So yes: Projects like Draco Linux and OpenRC are "free as in freedom" and I don't think this will ever change. But their (peer)group is not that kind of big and what about the point where Microsoft have some more requirements to the users, changing the way to address and use Github? When the projects mentioned just quit, because first their usergroup is not that kind of big and their developer(s) don't have the possibility to host a complete own infrastructure? There are enough examples about those abandoned projects, even when searching through the AUR some of them are easy to be found and the PKGBUILD is just malfunctional because there is no further source-code to load, nothing to modify. The reasoning: The project died, a very silent death. Comparing this to systemd: It is also hosted on Github, but there is enough interest behind and also enough financial interest itself to build own repositories and infrastructure or just staying there with renewed requirements from Microsoft.

It is the same with hardware and in fact all starts here with the basic problem: If there is not enough interest, free and libre hardware is only done afterwards by enthusiasts. Most people don't even think about this, using UEFI and every modern machine with the promise of even more "power to compute". While producing even more garbage, we have already knowledge that Linux (without GNU) is following also this course overtime and the kernel itself is implementing just more and more proprietary definitions and blobs. That's the point: Pragmatism is the wrong way and it is also done just because we are too convenient (talking about the free software-community in a whole) accepting those minor flaws. But a minor flaw as problem can become to a major flaw overtime. We have enough mentions within the wiki and just to point at Mozilla Firefox itself as a project: Pretending to protect freedom and awareness of security and privacy, but just doing the opposite. Minor flaws can be technical faults overtime in regard to freedom and privacy: Removing Zeitgeist and geoclue for example (Gnome), but what about the point where those optional dependencies become essentials? Afterwards another search has to start how to get rid of freedom flaws. Getting back to Firefox there is even nothing left because Rust is essential to compile newer versions.

The point is very clear: In a long run, the "freedom of choice" could disappear more and more. Only some bigger projects are left and that's completely inacceptable for me. So I write down thoughts and warnings! I will never enforce anyone to agree with me, even better to disagree and in the end being on the wrong way as it is not that kind of sinister. But until today we just can see the opposite, with all of this and I fear this is just the beginning as the concepts of "free, libre software" and "free, libre hardware" is so marginalized to this point, that is just summarized with some kind of open-source. Projects like Libreboot or Replicant are just a good demonstration and it is better for them having their own place as it is here the same with Hyperbola. So "we" can have the chance being small but interested and focussed. The warnings are the same because we are on little islands. And as much F-Droid started being some good alternative, as much they've failed this point with pragmatism in regard to applications in the repositories with access to proprietary services, proprietary resources and even though no source-code at all. We have also to think about ethics - meaning "we" as global community into "free, libre software" - and not only some kind of following the common sentenced "free as in freedom".

And when looking for the next years to come: Linux (without GNU) could vanish into the "cloud". You can rely on technology moving in the direction of capital and when much of the capital is distributed to / through the military it's not surprising that UEFI restricted boot is becoming the norm, DRM is becoming an integral part of the web, and "free, libre software" is being described as "piracy" in a common sense. If we stay passive, make some pragmatic choices, we (talking about all of us) could have to pay a very high price for this. And again: I hope I'm just wrong about it. I hope this is just some sinister picture out of my mind and I can lay down this one as some dystopian imagery! The "free, libre soft- and hardware" have got no further lobby and when trying to get this, sooner or later the project will get onto catastrophic sideways or just become more or less the opposite of free. It is all about capital, money and profit to get some kind of "lobby" and I think calling the warnings about this "extreme" is just wrong because it marginalize the positioning as it also helps to support simplified views about hosting-platforms like Github - not even speaking about the criticism regarding Github long before bought through Microsoft as this was also ignored by many. Github is not the friendly supporter of "open-source" or "free software", it is about a complete business-model and making money out of the data hosted itself. Getting into this cannot end good as we all know enough others in the web / Internet itself. sad

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

114 (edited by throgh 2020-04-29 10:16:19)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Sharing principles about "being believable":

  • free, libre software per definition of five freedoms

  • free, libre culture for everyone and open-minded in between as part of solidarity and empathy

  • open and free standards for soft- and hardware

  • release and opening of public data for everyone without boundaries

  • protection of personal data for everyone

  • internet neutrality

  • human rights and freedoms in the face of digital spaces and also in the analogue world

  • social equality in the society everywhere, speaking of solidarity and empathy, reaching out through decentralization instead of some big names and platforms

Teaching each other more about ethics, about clear principles and wrong-sided flaws leading to catastrophic situations.
And yes: This is an utopian view, I know. But just writing down some dream, some idealistic perspective is better than just to accept the "status quo" and making some "deal with it". wink
Yes, we need ideals and idealism. But do we need big groups giving us those thoughts? We need discussions and proposals wide spreading as the FSF itself is loosing more and more. And for now not talking about the FSFE as they have good ideas but being already into the lobby with Google and more. Using this last given "picture": It is about names of the single supporters as individuals, not about corporations and companies as capitalism will ultimately break the idealistic picture of "free, libre software" otherwise.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

115 (edited by throgh 2020-04-30 08:43:25)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Being free with own decisions and thereofre making modifications to the hardware you own:

Perhaps installing OpenWRT or LibreCMC on your router?
Perhaps flash Replicant on your mobile device?
Perhaps flash Core- or even better Libreboot on your computer's mainboard?

Afterwards trying different operating-systems being free and open for your own modifications. The contrary is also your own decision, but why using insults for people doing this? I read every day the same: Mean words about being "extreme" or "radicale", not those words itself but in the end it is all about throwing beings out of something, excluding them and not because they have said something disgusting about others. Just because they want to do different with their hardware. And time is showing: It is getting more and more compilcated to do so. Being believable means the opposite: Look after others, ask them questions and show empathy. Discussing like here in the thread, so thanks to everyone reading and writing down the personal point of view. It's not about acceptance without questioning!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

116 (edited by throgh 2020-05-03 00:10:13)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Simple programs are generally superior and are considered more elegant than messy programs with endless flaws and massive technical debt, including dependencies. That’s what many things became, perhaps because it’s conveniently assumed that security doesn’t really matter and old computers should just be retired. No matter the cost: Progress is all that matters? Being pragmatic and well, any program stays free even hosted onto proprietary services? Remembering the four freedoms: Use, study, share and improve. Okay here we are for now:

USE
Generally speaking possible. But please remember: Only when all dependencies are installed. You don't want something enabled? Oh, perhaps some application cannot be used at all.

STUDY
Important, but only possible with enough time when you have so much bloatware installed. You want some names? systemd, pulseaudio, avahi and many more. And even though: There are enough participants being paid for their projects. In general this is good, but looking at the names: IBM / Red Hat, Microsoft, Google etc.
Companies doing this for profit and how can a project done throughout private persons in their free time being compared towards those done as job? Reading throughout million lines of code and trying to understand while projects getting bigger and bigger in the name of "progress". Projects getting monolithic by any means and becoming even so complicated that they push away others - yeah, talking about you systemd. But hey: "Take it, it is FREE!" Doubt it and why is there no further action regarding those projects like systemd? Just because of the licensing? Come on. And the alternatives get no further support or even worse are ignored in general?

SHARE
Sharing throughout proprietary services is not really helpful and contrary towards the libre thought of "free culture". So many projects make usage of Github, Discord and much more. Why? Because it is conveniently adapted as most people use those services? And why not using the own free, libre projects? Building services on top of them? Why not questioning the flaws of newly adapted languages / frameworks like Rust, Node.js and Mono? Sharing pragmatism has lead us here to this point and there are not really many projects left with strict principles about free, libre software.

IMPROVE
The question is: What to improve? A kernel filled with binary firmware-blobs? A monolithic system-management filled with so many flaws? Many dependencies from bloatware-projects? Desktop-environments being messy and bloated from the ground up?

This is increasingly the mentality in “Linux” (without GNU) and enough GNU-projects are also not respecting the "freedom of choice", the fifth freedom being not mentioned here: The freedom NOT to use some library / component and being in denial with its installation.
And showing respect for all those people trying to build free, libre software is the major point, nevertheless on Github or on own decentralized structures. But in general "free software" is marginalized in regards to buzzwords like "open-source" bringing the pragmatic viewing mentioned earlier. When you read this, perhaps you see some possibility moving away your project from centralized structures? Or you have own ideas helping others doing so? Yeah, this won't bring more talk about software. But what matters? Having a future without centralization and false compromises or doing that with the knowledge that all of this is going to vanish?

And a straw man often thrown out is that "developers are not obligated to write or do anything". This is not an excuse for terrible ethics or terrible mistreatment of the user! The contrary: The argument ignores completely what freedom should imply even because the user is free to choose and should have the freedom to question the way who in fact owns the machine in use: The user or somebody else? With convenience and pragmatism more and more data is given away. Why in fact is there a need to "free" software being licensed under free, permissive licensing? Removing therefore interfaces and connections towards proprietary services: That makes the software the contrary! Software Disobedience is an important part of being free, running also into errors and making them to learn more from the concurrent situation. Having a light system and decentralized infrastructure we can really trust. And that also includes making forks of used patches from Debian right here for the packages at Hyperbola. The other way around? Well, Debian is moving and deleting folders and files. While the net is not forgetting, sometimes data is just disappearing or moved. Same with links onto Github and others! So all comes down to make a complete fork of all PKGBUILDs in the near future, not only the ones Hyperbola made and modified. Even though to remember all readers that you can download them:

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

117 (edited by throgh 2020-05-03 22:31:03)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

The thing about "being believable" is also being NOT missionary. Yes, free software is one idealistic picture. But the thing is: Idealism should never lead to any blind fanatic picture as ignoring the will and thoughts of others is NOT the way to go at all. So how to walk forward? Stay clear for your own principles and do as you wish with respecting others and their own ways. When somebody don't want to use free, libre soft- and hardware there is nothing to do, nothing to speak about it and nothing to convince. Being just convinced for own decisions and therefore being straight forward for own principles. Never trying to be some kind missionary as this is nothing more than "marketing".

And we should be also honest: There are enough mean stories out there being written as some kind of proof that pragmatic views are just better and "free, libre software", the GPL and more are just a blind ideology. Don't give those stories more evidence! Just give them the reality and be not part of the problem.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

118 (edited by throgh 2020-05-04 15:16:11)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Using Github is the same as using Amazon AWS or Microsoft Azure in general: Those are all proprietary services and they just kick out projects being disliked. I don't want to write about censorship in general: It is just this ignorance making all even more complicated. Handbrake is using centralized hosting-services from Amazon for example (just downloaded a newer package for some tryouts). Maybe the software is not getting proprietary, but the services behind are this and nothing more. And it is just about time when those services have done enough damage to free, libre software as the principles are ruined completely. Same with Microsoft being more and more into Python. So Hyperbola should stick with Python 2.

Yes, this sounds not so good at all. But being free mans also to stay away from proprietary services as nothing good is coming out of them. Using own infrastructure and stop making use of all those "new media"-nonsense! And the companies like Facebook, Google, Amazon, Microsoft and many more are not our friends and even if pretending ... they don't love free software. It is all about the money: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= … 019-Report

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

119 (edited by throgh 2020-05-07 23:47:43)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Being believable and why exactly the FSFE for example just fails in being honest and strict bound onto principles. You want some examples?

Here is the first one. While I don't really like (anti-)social networks - and in my personal opinion they have done more damage than everything else - using more centralized, proprietary services just helps who? And what kind of signal should this be? Twitter? YouTube? Oh okay, some kind of Mastodon, but well where is the difference when doing such foul compromises? Just for the search of "likes" and making much more noise? When somebody is interested in "free software" there is no need to carry everything back into proprietary services because this is a complete false signal for everyone as those are in some way "okay". No, they are not okay. But well coming back onto the next and second one: The so-called donors. Is this a community-driven project or just more of being somewhat of an echochamber of other interests? I had those discussions back the days when using GNU-Social with some people being officials of the FSFE and they answered always on two ways: Either I never got any kind of feedback about the question being financed throughout Google and therefore being in some way dependent or the other way around rejecting any kind of context as this won't have any kind of influence.

Well? Maybe no direct influence, nevertheless this is a foul compromise and just being more pragmatic. Where is the reality of freedom? No criticism back about Microsoft being more and more into the development of the Linux-kernel? No mentioning about "the Hurd" as alternative? No criticism towards Mozilla and their own failures? No criticism back about missed out init-freedom and I'm not even mentioning the fifth freedom: Not to use some package and make it your own way. It seems the battle is lost as Linux (without GNU) is just heading towards more and more container-nonsense, pragmatic choices and no strict principles. Ah and we should also take into account all of those bloatware running around: dbus, avahi, pulseaudio ... those false pragmatic languages being some high promises and nevertheless full with patents and licensing being the opposite of "open" like Rust, Mono and of course Java. Thanks for nothing, FSFE! Ask yourself: Who owns your "computer" and your "data"? And why do you exactly use some kind of service? Because everyone is using it? Because friends and family are using it? Are there really no alternatives? I've said earlier: Being believable means being not missionary. And here is the point being: We can show what software following strict principles can be up to, exactly at this point. But it won't get easier with all those proprietary services around and just small steps forward. It's just everone's personal decision: No offense when using otherwise proprietary services, but the problem is not any kind of evil plan (there is none), it is just the shortening and so-called "standardization" while the mass of people is deciding and fails in having multiple possibilities being kept alive. Our world is complex and not deterministic at once!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

120

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Well, more examples about being believable: On the one hand building a real free and libre game like 0 A.D. but on the other hand carrying news throughout all the (anti-)social persistent and proprietary service-world. Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, you name it and it can be found. Yes, the project itself is free and libre for the time being ... meaning for now and it can be changed . There is no further guarantee besides making a fork. You think this won't happen? Well the project Subsonic should teach you otherwise: While first done in one way "open-source", there is nothing left of it and the project emerged being further free and libre is Airsonic. Nevertheless forking is absolutely useful, there is always the risk loosing people and therefore interest. Software-projects don't die at once and to handle freedom, privacy and security it is even better staying away completely from proprietary services. Otherwise there is a wrong perspective generated, seem to be "okay" using those services and no longer looking at all the wonderful own toolsets we have for building own, independent and community-driven infrastructure.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

121 (edited by throgh 2020-05-17 23:49:53)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Being believable means also being against anti-emancipatory services like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, WhatsApp and so many more. Building own, decentralized infrastructure and start handle with strict principle and in respect for each other, in respect for empathy and humaneness. Just don't following some straight capitalistic thoughts and motivations, no companies at all and stop seeing some leadership in some "big" names. Yes, people giving ideas. But this doesn't mean that those people are seen free from any kind of criticism. We have enough problems with meritocratic procedures and way of behaving in so many groups into free, libre software and projects itself.

You don't know what this means? Speaking out simple: Only ones doing something for the project have the right to speak and the more you do, the more rights you could get. Sounds unfair? Well, yes it is completely unfair and also inhumane. Because people are declacred as "untouchable", so they can do everything, also harassing, bullying and insulting others without any consequences. They do it because they are declared "untouchable" and "sensitive" for further progress. You think the deletion of hatred from centralized (anti-)social networks help? No, it doesn't. In fact there is no difference within centralized or decentralized platforms. What can help? It is up to you and it is up to me to speak up! And that's another point of being believable. Seeing inhumane hatred, seeing all the kind of prejudices and the problems also we've got today. Speak up against meritocracies and give everyone the same right. There is no difference and stop following wordings of others just because they've done some ideas or deeds. Do it for your own, hear for the ones being silent and thrown out of society, because they are declared "not fitting" or "being weak". That's disgusting what our global society is capable like all the people dying of arrogance, ignorance and hatred! And ask questions as even behind some masquerade of "peace" more hatred could come up. Be always critical, starting with yourself.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

122

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

And yes: We have absolute dependencies on some companies, for now. So select before you buy: Have a look onto h-node, get in touch with free, libre distributions and their communities, ask before you buy. Afterwards the selected operating system does not run or has further problems with proprietary chipsets being not free and therefore in need for firmware-blobs.

Select your alternatives,

  • LibreCMC or OpenWRT

  • Libreboot or Coreboot

  • Replicant

And try buying used, second-hand hardware. Yes, the risk is higher that something is malfunctional. But you don't show the companies that you are in need for further production: Those devices were bought once and are now in another circle for usage, not longer under the perspective of their original creators. You can select what you do with them, changing the firmare, the BIOS and modify it to your needs. Being emancipatory and final independent. Of course nobody has a personal chip-production in the backyard, but it is the best we can try for now, not to create even more devices thrown onto trash.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

123 (edited by throgh 2020-05-27 08:01:48)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Being believable means also being into the respect of freedom for everyone (who is in respect for living in peace and empathy) and not only the respect of the mass. Individuality is one thing, the reasoning for building software for own needs is the other. Yes, one argument being used is: You are not the only person of the world and so there are others and their favors to respect.

Yes, that's a good and valid point. But most time used other way around making questionsable decisions and ethics within development irrelevant. So overloaded interfaces and monolithic projects like systemd are made valid throughout this argumentation. Those projects made even with others respecting those freedom of choice and being built with different options onto different environments, based on the needs of the users. The argumentation of pragmatism is the vague pointout of security of the mass. Browsers based on XUL are in the minority and therefore more questionable than those used by the majority. Well, could be and of course having more people into testing is absolutely needed. But as mentioned before: Vague argumentation as those "majority" and used browsers for example implement enough anti-features. Where is the difference? Where to begin with trust? And why always using this "principle" of the so-called majority, of the masses?

Yes, we are not "alone" and people using Hyperbola have other interests as people using Arch Linux for example. Well? And what next? There are enough projects like systemd, pulseaudio and more ignoring the freedom of choice, as they are also included into the distributions as the only reliable option. Where is the so-called "freedom" now? And besides: XUL-based browsers had a long time to be tested as Mozilla dropped this out with versions after 52. So either helping out with testing as possibility or just stop with those argumentations as "bloatware" is clear defined - argumentation for "bloat" being vague and subjective, this is not true at all. And in the end the discussion slip away from the ground we need: Information is one thing. But do we need all those websites with videos, animations and interactive JavaScript executed directly? Where is the information? Hidden in all those blinking animations? And just because the "mass" (whatever this means in the end), the "majority" mean to have this as absolute base: Is this the base for reasonable decisions? I don't think so.

Annotation: And yes, guess what ... there is NO unlimited freedom as pointed out in earlier posts. Technology cannot be viewed from a neutral point and is therefore always following some ideology. And we cannot use our "own personal freedom" to bring up restrictions for others, for their dignity or even for their lifes. Hatred is disgusting and a dangerous path. So keep this in mind when writing about "freedom", because this has also restrictions for everyone's good. Personal decisions have consequences: Do you try using real free, libre soft- and hardware? Do you try making more pragmatic choices? Or do you completely ignore idealism? All of this is a personal choice and all of this can lead to consequences. Use your freedom wisely to protect others, their life and their dignity. A living without fear and not being insulted for sexual orientation, skin colour, origin and religion one human being has got! A free culture on a global level to be formed.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

124 (edited by throgh 2020-05-27 10:04:16)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Besides just another short annotation to delete Github. The whole platform was problematic long before Microsoft got into and is now more of the same: Complete desaster for free, libre software making usage of own developments and instead being onto the pragmatic choice onwards into unknown horizons. Do you think Github can help making anything better? Think again as differences were and are made as part of their business model and there are enough examples to find. And the license of any library, any project itself can be changed in the future - of course not by Github and more coming directly from maintainers / maintaining groups as being part of "pragmatism". Of course most done with a fork. But stop thinking centralized platforms cannot do any harm. It is not okay to integrate and making use of them, can lead to destruction of clear principles.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

125 (edited by throgh 2020-05-29 08:55:24)

Re: Sharing information: About being believable!

Short comment on conspiracy ideologies (no, not theories as this wording is only for scientific support and not for hatemongering): Being believable means also to look behind the curtain and seeing human beings as exactly those, not to make differences between some kind of "the ones below against the ones above". You can see the difference? To get this more clear: Having the beliefs that there are always some kind of "evil masterplans" does not make anything better. In fact this is getting even more worse: First words and after that what? Deeds? Revolution? Think again: Revolutions most time are not peaceful and a bloody mess for many, hurting and killing. Take care of your own principles instead searching for "evil masterplans" before or behind some "hidden doors" - surprise: there are no "big plans". And there is the difference between being strict and being upside down, far away from rational thoughts.

You don't like "Bill Gates"? Okay, but on what base? Do you know him? Or do you just tend to rule from some articles, where writers tend to press their views onto you and me? Stop that. A good article is giving you and me a chance for own thoughts and own researches, not to take just one view. So questionize the way: Can I as a person make some final rule about "Bill Gates" just because he is characterized as "the evil in person" these days? No I cannot and I will not! I just can see the deeds and wordings from Microsoft, the company he founded back the days. So what? Do I believe Microsoft is "good"? No, I don't. So stop also give me and others only two options: In or out? That's risky, that's dangerous. Being believable is also about making mistakes, seeing in between and choose some way for a reformation. First things first: Not believing some simplified messages on anti-social platforms, because they are to be characterized on these ways when there is no further possibility for own researches and own conclusions. So again the question: Do I "like" Bill Gates as a person? Cannot answer this because I don't know him. Do I like what he is doing? Of course not always, but where is the difference? I want open medications for everyone, the far more open to be created the better. No patents at last, no licenses or something else. The idealism itself as I want "capitalism" to be destroyed and reformed to another system with democratic inbound. But as I've mentioned: Any utopian view can help, as dreamers can reach out for the sky - won't reach this in the near future, but better to believe on this as to search for "evil masterplans". And no: Being idealistic doesn't make you or me blind for "evil deeds" or better the consequences of arrogance and ignorance. In fact those are also two different points being. But this is another story for another posting here in the thread. smile I think it is important to make a clear statement as everyone is capable doing own searches and researches. And to replicate antisemite stereotypes back from darkest of history is nothing to do for real as it ends always really, really, really bad (nice description without any further wording). It is disgusting to do this and better to stand against it, stand for clear own principles. Do your research and just don't take only my words: Even though "we below against them above" is exactly that and nothing more. After "them" are "destroyed" there will be always another "them" and some people declare themselves to this position, again "for the greater good" - and all are living humans with own thoughts and stories behind, respect that in the first place, of course with viewing on what is developing and not play your own court. Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices - meaning exactly conspiracy ideologies: Just learn from books or even movies, hear the warnings for this dangerous path as the slur thoughts for "evil masterplans" will never stop and something is behind every edge - no, but people try to search only for the bad and even more bad instead to create alternatives or discuss solutions. The chance is there to stop that before it gets on rolling and the viscious circle will never stops after getting on rolling.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!