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Topic: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Hello together,

as going onwards with libre-friendly hardware I want to build a complete libre server-system in the near future. So I start with some more insights into the project as I'm also into migrating all services onto this machine with virtualization. Perhaps there is more interest into this? The mainboard is ready now with Libreboot flashed, but I have more components missing, especially the cooling-units for the CPUs.

Hyperbola should be the basic system for my hypervisor and will be also used on all virtualized guest systems. More to come when everything is ready, including the final hardware-information. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

The first milestone is reached for now: System is working, booting up and installing Hyperbola. I've chosen the mainboard ASUS KGPE-D16 as base and bought it from Vikings, pre-built coming up with Libreboot and 8 GB RAM installed. As CPU I've used two AMD Opteron 6278, so the final system has 32 cores. Today I've installed Hyperbola on a harddisk as first test - a leftover from earlier systems. Working so far from the installation process and the system is booting. A short note: The integrated graphics-card seems not fitting so I've used an adapter from NVidia - a Geforce 730 GT.

What should I say? Working for the first milestone!

Next to come: Real installation on finalized harddisk-definition - better a little SSD for the basic system. So I'll keep updates here when ready!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

3

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Second update: Server is installed with Hyperbola GNU/Linux 64bit and working. Basic services are available, including qemu with libvirtd. The data:

  • ASUS KGPE-D16 mainboard with Libreboot

  • 2 x AMD OPTERON 6278, 16 cores for one CPU

  • 64 GB RAM

  • 2 TB Harddisk for operating system

  • 10 TB Harddisk for virtualization

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

4 (edited by jim 2024-03-17 18:14:17)

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Hello Throgh. Tell me please, did you manage to assemble the server? Did you build this server to use it without graphic programs? What version of Libreboot did you install? I want to buy (order) all the parts => https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=951, assemble them and publish information here for other users.
I recently found out that in order to run graphical programs I need to use the Linux-libre kernel, without this it is impossible to run graphical programs, as reported on the Libreboot website
https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/kgp … l#graphics

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Yes, the server is existing as I have written and described. I'm was never running this system with any graphical interface as no server should do this from my personal understanding. Besides I have also mentioned that I have deactivated this system for some time now as it consumed that much energy and is not in my intention and perspective of environment friendly. In general there are really other systems around fulfilling server-tasks with quite less energy-consumption.

I had issues with graphical initialization, used afterwards a Geforce 710 card I had. But as said: Result was really only preferred for stable text-output and console. Never any intention for more as a server does not need that.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Thank you for your answer .

Please tell me what memory manufacturer you used? I looked at this table https://www.coreboot.org/Board:asus/kgpe-d16 recommended
Kingston KVR16R11D4K4/64 and on the Libreboot website I read that there are problems with Kingston.

As for running graphics programs, I was looking for a board to make a desktop computer. Laptops with 2 cores are good, but I would like something more powerful Dual Opteron 6212 Gaming PC https://invidious.protokolla.fi/watch?v=TBKeatDrJoc


What do you think about PureOS, this company has a compact and powerful solution https://puri.sm/products/librem-mini/ can you trust them? In the Penguin chat they claim that they cannot be trusted..

There is also a company called Nitrokey, they do something similar https://shop.nitrokey.com/shop?&search=nitropc

https://files.catbox.moe/l5dla5.png

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Kingston ECC-modules corresponding for the board. Sorry, not more details possible as I don't have the exact ones available any longer. But exactly there is the point with this board: It is a server-board. It is not common use for a desktop-system and would be essential not good as it consumes very much. I had severe issues getting it running even with a fitting tower and more. So it was a longe project running and in the end it consumed as said so much energy that I would really not say that you should take into perspective. The point here is: Yes, you can run it. You can use Libreboot or Coreboot. You can also install Hyperbola. But the whole board is done as server-system. So it should consume the most power possible at any time.

It is very fast. To use it as build-server, as machine hosting services and more like it? Working fine. But it draws that much energy you won't be that happy in the end.

About Purism: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=276
The company Purism is clearly the worst selection possible and they are not trustworthy.

About Nitrokey: Well, please have in mind that most of those companies are using same alike you would able to accomplish also. Buying second-hand hardware and refurbish. Alternative is different: Yes, they also offer newer hardware done but the pricing is also not that low. So it depends on what you want to do and for which workload you plan the machine. If this is for "gaming" especially "modern gaming": No, this won't work. Not with free and libre software itself when you take into account what you await from it. When you await newest graphics and high-performance, that video-presentation you have linked is not done on GNU/Linux-libre for sure. You should not await anything like that.

Also all GPUs nowadays await binary firmware-blobs to get them running with all wanted performance. As the manufacturers do not grant support on alternative implementations (not AMD, not NVidia and not Intel) you won't get anything like to be seen in the videos and your current systems should work without problems but with free, libre software and drivers. If you want and need server-performance for something, you can nevertheless find alternative solutions elsewhere. Everything else is much money for not that much more output.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

8

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

And I want to underline again: This little thread here was for a project I would never personal recommend doing for anyone. The resulting machine is interesting, powerful. But it is a server, nothing more and nothing less. It is NOT for a desktop to be recommended in our times with its power-consumption alone. Would I do that again? Exactly no. The machine is standing now elsewhere as I have donated it for something better as machine for building and computing open data.

So if you await something like in that video you have linked: No, that won't happen anytime soon on any free, libre operating-system. Different reasonings: First of all for sure that there are not many free, libre games with that direction shown. Many games use HLSL-shaders, not GLSL. This makes them even more problematic as the orientation is not on stable direction but only progressive. Meaning therefore: Vulkan and Wine / Proton. Hyperbola is not supporting any of these out of reasoning. Next up as said: There are most no graphiccards working good without non-free firmware-blobs. So most are left is the generation: Intel Sandybridge, Ivybridge, Haswell and some older also. Most integrated GPU. Awaiting most graphic-performance, defined energy-efficient and likewise "best graphic-performance" ... is an illusion. Those machines are not existing when it is about free, libre hardware and software.

You can have fun, but more reasonabe with the machines you already seem to have. Not with some you think of. We have integrated most games possible with Hyperbola native here in the repositories. Rest is up to everyone personal in tests. But again, last but not least: Not like in that video shown.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9 (edited by jim 2024-03-18 14:39:08)

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Thank you very much for your answer and your opinion.

Over the past week, I have heard 3-4 negative opinions from real users who assembled a desktop computer using the ASUS KGPD-16 motherboard.

I've heard of possible problems:

1. Problem with RAM under load The PC was overloaded.

2. Selection of components

3. Server bridge - cooling

4. Video card, someone told me that it might be better to use Radeon than Nvidia

5. Stable operation

6. Your opinion is important to me. Do you think that now Libreboot and Coreboot are the same thing? Is it possible to get the same freedom or more freedom than Libreboot by collecting Coreboot?

I saw that, for example, there is such a motherboard https://www.phoronix.com/news/MSI-Z790- … t-Mainline on which you can run Coreboot, the same board is used to build the desktop PC NitroPC Pro 2   https://shop.nitrokey.com/shop/nitropc- … ch=nitropc

What logic? These companies disable ME and don't care about proprietary components in other parts of the computer that could pose a threat?

I also saw a new solution https://libreboot.org/docs/hardware/dell9020.html

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Nowadays Libreboot is nothing more than Coreboot. The difference was before: Libreboot for real libre systems without any blob in the BIOS-firmware running. Now Libreboot was changed and it has this "blob-reduction policy" which is in fact integration of blobs out of convinience for more modernized systems. For that puprose the original OS-Boot (before merging Libreboot and OS-Boot from Leah) would have been enough.

So Coreboot is in fact enough when you look out for newer machines and Libreboot can be ignored as it fails its mission-statement.

About the linked mainboard: You are thinking of Dasharo, which is another project coming up from Coreboot and offering exactly what they say. So the companies for sure care in a way for firmware-blobs, but in fact they have no other choice as to include some of them as otherwise the systems won't run or only for about half an hour (afterwards the missing Intel ME for example would cause a system-shutdown when north- and southbridge communicating would not find the Intel ME blob answering correct in time).

About the Dell MFF 9020: Yes, I'm also interested in that even then from Minifree or Libreboot. But for the purpose of creating a NAS to get a good data-backup. For the moment I'm just collecting information on how this system (Dell-one) could operate big harddrives in a Raid10 as an example. But again on graphiccards: Selecting Radeon (AMD) is even worse than NVidia. As I have said: The situation is not good in those regions. And for running those graphiccards there is always need of a binary firmware-blob, especially for most Radeon-cards - when you want 3d-acceration for sure. You can do much with modesetting, but as underlined: NOT with 3d-acceleration. And the mainboard here in the thread described is and stays for servers, so foremost terminal. Every other usecase can be done elsewhere and the argumentation to have more performance is on behalf of free, libre hardware more to be focussed on the CPU and RAM-sizing ... not so much on graphics. Gaming is and stays possible, even on ThinkPad X60. The point is just: What is wanted? Emulation? Sure thing for many. 2D and some 3D? Sure also. But those so-called "modern graphics"? No, just as said.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

11

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Thank you for your answer .

When I was looking for answers to my questions, I discovered interesting news, it’s for you)) You know that artificial intelligence, all modern complex models such as GPT4 or Grok are more dangerous for our planet than servers such as KGPE, they consume a very large amount of energy, and people use them to compose greeting cards for them)) instead of reading books, developing and coming up with their content on their own!

Returning to our topic. Okay, then I’ll study this list https://coreboot.org/status/board-status.html and think about what I can choose from it so that it’s as clean as possible from the point of view of blobs, so to speak))

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Oh, about machine learning: I know that this is the most danger for nonsense and energy consumption is horrific (and we are talking only about this one part now, there is so much more beyond including security and privacy). But for the beginning people need to understand that point with slight more near points as those technologies are too far away from many.

Coreboot-wise: The problem is also that those first-market boards (like the ones with Dasharo) are explicite ported for some special Intel- and AMD-generations (Alder Lake or Kaby Lake). It would be very good if we could get more ports for newer ones like those also for second market. But there is the issue with the "Boot Guard" being part of the BIOS- / UEFI-implementation and so flashing is getting even more complicated or even near impossible.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

13

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Hello Jim,
tehnoetic still sells their model based on the D16 with GNUBoot and the GeForce GT-710 [1]. Anyhow, if you build it by your self, some people reports it is not easy to make the GT-710 to run properly. Still very old but the last card compatible with libre-linux. As Throgh said, that was a board for servers, maybe the D8 [2] suits better for a desktop.
In any case, please consider that you will need to put some effort to make things running and in any case very modern games will not perform as in video demonstrators (if even work).

[1] https://tehnoetic.com/desktops/tet-d16ws
[2] https://shop.vikings.net/product/kcma-d … certified/

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Those demonstrations are from any point not honest and very vague: There are no details shown, only some minutes. What system is used? What components in detail? So this video is complete out of context as it is even not showing anything from GNU/Linux as base. And as said: Even though it should be not to await that this is material from GNU/Linux-libre.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

15 (edited by jim 2024-03-19 09:58:15)

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Bemc hello . Thanks for the reply and recommendation

As I wrote above, I spent a lot of time trying to find answers on how to assemble a desktop computer using KGPE-D16, but in almost 99% of cases these were unsuccessful examples. For example, there is this example https://cherub.im/blog/articles/buildin … re-server/ , the user bought parts, spent time and was unable to assemble them, and there are a lot of such examples, that is, there are more questions than answers.

I talked with real users who assembled it not theoretically but in practice and they dissuaded me)) I was offered to buy a board for Coreboot and assemble a desktop computer since now Coreboot and Libreboot are almost the same.
I don’t know how the Gnuboot https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuboot/gnuboot-0.1-rc3/roms/  release for KGPE-D16 works!

As for your example, we don’t know whether it works or not, and I looked at their price for the motherboard, it seems to me like a robbery))) 1600 euros is too expensive!

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

jim wrote:

Bemc hello . Thanks for the reply and recommendation

As I wrote above, I spent a lot of time trying to find answers on how to assemble a desktop computer using KGPE-D16, but in almost 99% of cases these were unsuccessful examples. For example, there is this example https://cherub.im/blog/articles/buildin … re-server/ , the user bought parts, spent time and was unable to assemble them, and there are a lot of such examples, that is, there are more questions than answers.

I talked with real users who assembled it not theoretically but in practice and they dissuaded me)) I was offered to buy a board for Coreboot and assemble a desktop computer since now Coreboot and Libreboot are almost the same.
I don’t know how the Gnuboot https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuboot/gnuboot-0.1-rc3/roms/  release for KGPE-D16 works!

As for your example, we don’t know whether it works or not, and I looked at their price for the motherboard, it seems to me like a robbery))) 1600 euros is too expensive!

If you have to use a coreboot derivative, I strongly recommend you use libreboot or canoeboot at the minimum till gnuboot is stable. I myself would use one of those two indefinitely just due to the updates they get compared to gnuboot.

But each to their own.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

I know the sellers of libre-hardware charge a lot their refurbished products, but I would not call it a robbery. It is not really profitable in many cases. From vikings.net:

We try our best to find the best laptops available to send out to our customers. The X200 turns 16 years in 2024. Given that age and unavailability of spare parts (we use spare parts from donor laptops these days) we cannot guarantee the exceptional condition that you can normally expect from Vikings. We consider it a service to the FLOSS community to offer these laptops refurbished where nobody else does professionally. If you want a laptop in exceptional condition, this may not be for you.

In top of that the libre-boot ecosystem is getting segregated and hash. In fact Vikings now do not install the original libreboot anymore, but Coreboot. Minifree installs also Llbreboot (Coreboot-like). Libiquity installs Libreboot (not sure which version). From the original list of FSF-RYF Laptops (https://ryf.fsf.org/categories/laptops) only Technoethical continue offering 100% free software with GNU Boot. Tehnoethical is in fact the most expensive of these shops, but it is also quiet interesting that they managed to free the X301 and the T400s Laptops by some inboard soldering - to my knowledge with the fastest laptop processors running free.

Talos is also quiet expensive, it was starte-of-the-art computing with a board designed by themselves. All these people deserve credit, even if we cannot afford some prices. This market is so small, so difficult to be sustainable. That is the reason why I find so sad to see thinks like the discussions of the leaders of Minifree and Technoethical in the forums of Trisquel. And also that discussion about Free has to be Gratis, and some other distracting discussions. All that makes complicate to construct a business around FLOSS, and should not be the case.

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Let us please keep this thread ON-TOPIC as all of this now is not related to the original question and intention. Furthermore one last point from: Constructing "a business around free software" is exactly the major failure the FSF and many more have not recognized until today. At one point "business" is related always to keeping things away from public. Free software is the exact counterpoint as the whole development is existing in the public, is free to view, learn and modify. A "business" is the counterpart and when we look only into the first steps of personal computing, the early days done with systems like the C64 and programming in BASIC: Sure there were closed source applications, but the majority was living up with creating code open, sharing and modifying. People learned and grew up with exact this mindset and from this the vision was born the FSF and others use even today.

They also pointed out that at a later point "business" resulted in closing up sources. But instead doing here the fitting homework it stays at "build a business around free software", which is failing for sure one point (not the only one) why we are now here. Also because the FSF and many others seem to ignore that free software is for all beings, not only some. So hard- and software should be available for all people, not for some with the money to buy overpriced refurbished hardware. I can look through so many reports and even stories like the book "Ready Player One" where the tale is going around the company Gregarious Simulation Systems and the whole world is using their "OASIS" a virtual-reality system claimed as "Open-Source". Side by side: Even in this story the usage is not going on-point because not only using the false and vague wording "open-source". A "business" is always a failure as the current definition of this is only for serving its own purpose and keep itself alive, whatever is needed for. Therefore a "business" will also raise pricing, won't be transparent and more. Exact the opposite of major points free, libre software would want to reject for its own altruistic motivation. Please read also here: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … c_failures

All of this is a short point of many more, but I do not see any relation to the original thread and therefore I would like to stay on-topic. We can learn many of the failures and missing analysis not done, we should learn for sure. But this is something for another thread. wink This thread is NOT meant to debate about Libreboot or "Canoeboot" generic, also not about Minifree or others. Please let us stay just at the given points made! And the FSF could have established a complete different model, perhaps even in co-work with others named here already. Instead of proposing false products from Purism or as said expensive ones it should be possible for everyone interested, also to have those hardware possible to maintain for a very long time, including the creation of parts for repair or enhance those systems. As said: Much to learn and more problems, failures within this.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

19

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Thanks Throgh, I mostly agree with you if we are talking about free software. But not if we are talking about restoration 16 years old hardware, in that case the business model is artisan work, since no serial copies can be made.
Jim, Sorry for the off-topic. I hope you find your way to a workstation to run graphical programs. From my experience with GeForce in general, even if you make the system run with free software, you should expect frequent rendering errors here and there.

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

No worries, all fine here. smile
If we talk about preservation and conservation for example: Exactly that would be a fine way forward. Exactly in regards of hardware and making it possible for people generally to take over responsibility for their hardware in usage. But this sensible point would be really an interesting topic for another thread also. Would be surely interesting!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

21

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

throgh wrote:

Let us please keep this thread ON-TOPIC as all of this now is not related to the original question and intention. Furthermore one last point from: Constructing "a business around free software" is exactly the major failure the FSF and many more have not recognized until today. At one point "business" is related always to keeping things away from public. Free software is the exact counterpoint as the whole development is existing in the public, is free to view, learn and modify. A "business" is the counterpart and when we look only into the first steps of personal computing, the early days done with systems like the C64 and programming in BASIC: Sure there were closed source applications, but the majority was living up with creating code open, sharing and modifying. People learned and grew up with exact this mindset and from this the vision was born the FSF and others use even today.

They also pointed out that at a later point "business" resulted in closing up sources. But instead doing here the fitting homework it stays at "build a business around free software", which is failing for sure one point (not the only one) why we are now here. Also because the FSF and many others seem to ignore that free software is for all beings, not only some. So hard- and software should be available for all people, not for some with the money to buy overpriced refurbished hardware. I can look through so many reports and even stories like the book "Ready Player One" where the tale is going around the company Gregarious Simulation Systems and the whole world is using their "OASIS" a virtual-reality system claimed as "Open-Source". Side by side: Even in this story the usage is not going on-point because not only using the false and vague wording "open-source". A "business" is always a failure as the current definition of this is only for serving its own purpose and keep itself alive, whatever is needed for. Therefore a "business" will also raise pricing, won't be transparent and more. Exact the opposite of major points free, libre software would want to reject for its own altruistic motivation. Please read also here: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … c_failures

All of this is a short point of many more, but I do not see any relation to the original thread and therefore I would like to stay on-topic. We can learn many of the failures and missing analysis not done, we should learn for sure. But this is something for another thread. wink This thread is NOT meant to debate about Libreboot or "Caneoboot" generic, also not about Minifreee or others. Please let us stay just at the given points made! And the FSF could have established a complete different model, perhaps even in co-work with others named here already. Instead of proposing false products from Purism or as said expensive ones it should be possible for everyone interested, also to have those hardware possible to maintain for a very long time, including the creation of parts for repair or enhance those systems. As said: Much to learn and more problems, failures within this.


Fair enough, I was just stating a fact that gnuboot hasn't had a stable release yet.

Btw, you spelled canoeboot wrong and minifree wrong. tongue

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

22

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

Thanks, corrected. I should not use that damn keyboard any longer and instead this one. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

23

Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

throgh wrote:

Thanks, corrected. I should not use that damn keyboard any longer and instead this one. smile

Mostly I was just messin with you by pointing that out big_smile

But yeah it was true.

Its just fun correcting people's grammar, because...

"who the flippin cares?

xD

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Server-Update: About Libreboot on ASUS KGPE-D16

It is important, in every part. It is okay to see this with ironic approach, but important is a clear naming, clear facts and a clear analysis. So I will close now this thread as all was said. If there is interest to debate about sustainability, especially for hardware in a second use like for example X200, we can create another new thread.

A personal note: Yes, taking some fun out of is fine, but laughing is laughing together and not laughing on behalf of others. No, no offense taken and none given from me. But please be always aware that this is one very important point. Not alone here at Hyperbola, but everywhere. If we want a better future for all of us, we need to rethink about ourselves. smile

People loosing hope out of lost ideals and something to get into, accepting crude tales and false claims just as the "own freedom is out of more value than the freedom of everyone" - which is really false. So I say giving hope back with the belief in values and good democratic principles, for a free software and movement behind where every individual can be emancipated. But to underline: As "Libreboot" is failing its original mission, "Canoeboot" is only meant as some blame-project (to blame "GNU Boot") and exactly no further difference is there for Coreboot nowadays and "Coreboot" itself is not making such claims or use problematic perspectived to blame others (which is harming the whole community and is dishonest) ... we should stop using claims and recommendations for the project "Libreboot". There is no further intention for ideals within "Libreboot" nowadays and "somewhat more freedom" is exactly NOT freedom. Users are bound in buying as said expensive refurbished hardware, without sustainability. It is just that now the hardware is bought different, but users have not won anything more, no emancipation and no further knowledge.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!