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Topic: Future of GPUs

Do we have any hope for libre friendly GPUs in the near future ? I keep thinking that even if I could afford something like a Talos II that if I wanted to stay libre I would have to pair it with a GTX 780 Ti using Nouveau and that seems like such a waste of money for any GPU heavy task. I have a GTX 780 Ti using Nouveau and it struggles to even play Super Tux Kart maxed out. Hoping for some news I hadn't come across. I am aware of Libre-SOC but that seems a ways off from being a reality. ARM and RISC-V devices have GPUs that make the 780 Ti on Nouveau seem powerful in comparison.

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Re: Future of GPUs

The question would be more: Can we "play" even in the future to the rules we want to make ourself? The answer is here just: NO. So yes, it is a harsh part, but either choose free and libre hardware or parts being compatible with free and libre software or ending up with non-free parts and bad compromises in a whole. SuperTuxKart plays also for sure without all details on maximum as far I can read from your posting.

Modern gaming is heading completely in the wrong direction for years and won't stop. Partly also other projects also heading in the wrong direction: Do we really need the best graphics? All details on modern graphiccards with all the interfaces? That's the trick to buy always "newer". As I have written: Wrong direction, especially when it comes to our environment and climate. Not to mention that "Talos" for example is nothing to even think of: Free and libre hardware has to be also payable for everyone, not just to some.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Future of GPUs

throgh wrote:

The question would be more: Can we "play" even in the future to the rules we want to make ourself? The answer is here just: NO. So yes, it is a harsh part, but either choose free and libre hardware or parts being compatible with free and libre software or ending up with non-free parts and bad compromises in a whole. SuperTuxKart plays also for sure without all details on maximum as far I can read from your posting.

Modern gaming is heading completely in the wrong direction for years and won't stop. Partly also other projects also heading in the wrong direction: Do we really need the best graphics? All details on modern graphiccards with all the interfaces? That's the trick to buy always "newer". As I have written: Wrong direction, especially when it comes to our environment and climate. Not to mention that "Talos" for example is nothing to even think of: Free and libre hardware has to be also payable for everyone, not just to some.

Specifically to the point of "Do we really need the best graphics?" the issue is more value than graphics. Can you imagine trying to explain to someone whose primary hobby is gaming that even if they are willing to dump all closed source games and just use FOSS ones that they will be spending amounts like $7000 USD on a Talos II or $2100 CAD on a Librebooted D16 to be able to play some FOSS games on low settings ? Do you realize how insane that sounds to the average person ? Even spending $600 CAD on a Librebooted laptop to play FOSS games on low settings is poor value.

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Re: Future of GPUs

First: The problem needs to be explained onto a complete different level. What happens with all the used hardware? Second: The hobby "gaming" is not some single-sided topic. It is a far range and when someone is just oriented onto "newest graphics" there won't be any solution with free and libre software at this point. That is clear to read and clear communicated. So there is for sure no real problem to understand that. The reasoning is the ignorance of companies and consumers both as only "numbers" count and therefore more profit, but not development being oriented to minimize the damage onto environment and be as compatible as possible also with free drivers and software in general.

About the pricing: There are surely ways to afford a libre system on different levels, either with "Libreboot" or "Coreboot". It depends on what the person is willing to do. And that was all I have said: It depends on the will. The full topic depends on the will. Am I willing to understand that buying newest hardware will cause rising environmental damage? Am I willing to get deeper into hardware, into the problems being there and also to ask for help, when I encounter problems? Or do I want something "out of the box working without any further questioning? And to be clear here: Buying a "Talos"-machine will also cause enough damage.

And last but not least:

PublicLewdness wrote:

Specifically to the point of "Do we really need the best graphics?" the issue is more value than graphics. Can you imagine trying to explain to someone whose primary hobby is gaming that even if they are willing to dump all closed source games and just use FOSS ones that they will be spending amounts like $7000 USD on a Talos II or $2100 CAD on a Librebooted D16 to be able to play some FOSS games on low settings ? Do you realize how insane that sounds to the average person ? Even spending $600 CAD on a Librebooted laptop to play FOSS games on low settings is poor value.

I can and will for sure explain anytime again the points to everyone asking. Libre gaming is quite not straight defined: It can be emulation at a point. It can be also something different as the phrase "gaming" itself is not that easy defined to one exact action to be done. And please: It is for sure your impression that something is about "poor value". But this does not change anything into any direction. If you want to have something changed, you need to take action. And I think personally that "libre gaming" is already fine enough as I don't want a comparison to commercialized software in general out of enough reasons.

But to underline again: The problem is on a such high level that only all groups and people in general can solve that. The alternative way: Solving onto individual position and this means trying to find ways learning to flash, document the process for others and support them also compiling their own firmware in the end. It is not the final solution, but the best we have. The future of GPUs in general is not written in stone, but it won't change soon enough. Sorry, but that's the part we have for the moment! Changing all free and libre software / hardware the other way won't result into "more freedom" or speaking with one of our goals like more technical emancipation. When you try to change something from the inner perspective, there won't be any change. So people need to understand that our concurrent way of consume and usage is the real problem. I understand that you are oriented onto the single question and topic itself. But it is what it is: Libre hardware stays frozen as newer hardware is not moving into the perspective of freedom and emancipation, the companies have no reasoning to do that and consumers have no interest into that. I don't see any "future", but I am also happy with the concurrent situation and will stay there as I did for the last ten years also. smile We should therefore try to optimize what is there and do the best we can. When we try to run behind the non-free parts more and more, we will surely loose everything on every stage possible. And to optimize and find new / better solutions for the problems being there with the free capable hardware is quite more promising than having any kind of imagination of some libre GPU in the future. This will be an illusion for sure with the known manufacturers.

This part of the forum is also not the place to discuss this matter, so I will move the topic.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Future of GPUs

I spent most of my weekend to learn how to use a terminal client for xmpp, because hyperbola doesn't provide (for technical and freedom issues) a graphical client.

Furthermore, I am now in the process to learn Apache for building a home server. This is because after the majority of Debian's developers vote, to include non-free firmware, I am no confident that freedombox (closely related to Debian) will not ship without non-free firmware. So I want to be able to make a choice, in the case I need to move my server to hyperbola.

I am not a programmer. Just an average Joe who thinks that freedom is a little more critical than convenience. We are making choices like that every day, although not so frequently in the technological field.

How we live in terms of consumption, ecology, parenting or solidarity with each other, is what defines our stance in this world.

That said, whoever buys high end PC for gaming is not the enemy. I am also compromising many things in my life. But those of us who are cursed/blessed with the gift of critical thinking, are obligated to underline this issues for ourselves and then for others.

let them build as many prisons as they want.
Even if the siege is closing in around us.
Our mind is like a wanderer, and will always be free.

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Re: Future of GPUs

Oh, I hope this was not too harsh said: I don't want anyone being seen as "enemy". Personal I don't even see the companies mentioned generic as such. But we have to face our own ignorance, otherwise we won't solve problems. Even more we stumble again back into darkest times, because our (I mean for sure "us" as a whole, not any kind of group, any kind of individuum) own greed drives us there.

The point: Can we forgive that? Can we overlook the coming reactions? And are we able to do it other way BEFORE it is too late? Learning from history instead repeating it.

To explain a bit more the way and thought of Hyperbola especially here: We will always try having HyperbolaBSD and our GNU/Linux-libre running on hardware capable. But for sure also only with free and libre drivers. Perhaps one day for example Nouveau gets a bunch of help and is able to enhance their implementation? Perhaps they get community-help and more attention? For sure they should get that. Hyperbola is build on top of integral parts and thoughts: Emancipation, empathy, solidarity and a warm welcome for all democrats out in the world oriented for sure onto those values. This will always be essential for us and for this community, on-going with the social contract. So following those: We have to make also critical annotations towards problems on-going and rising more within free and libre software itself - it is more or less the same ignorance, just another shaping.

For XMPP: Perhaps you can also use pidgin? We have also implementations for OMEMO and Matrix. smile

NOTE: I have removed and changed my personal stance about "last posting". Sure: I will be here and discuss, nobody should be handled that way. And if somebody felt attacked: No this was not my intention as everyone has a responsibility.

I know that this "NO" for future of GPUs is harsh, I understand for sure that we all wish for better ways and alternatives. But also we have not that much of any choice for the moment as working with what is there and build on top of it. This should not prevent us with possible other ways, but stay a warning. When we go for the other way(s) we won't get better and enclosure so many problems we would never want. Gaming is surely a wide range, but personally it is also quite a fine taste when you can emulate any older console with Hyperbola and have a fine time with beloved adventures from older days. Or you take a journey out in space, perhaps you help the ninja-rabbits to get justice or you settle down with your people in the "widelands". There is so much to discover! In the end it is just this: Either we (as a whole community in free and libre software) find a perfect "hack" or somebody leak disassembled bytecode of the firmware-blobs or we have to work with what is there. Besides that disassembling is surely a very questionable point in the legal perspective (and therefore a good point to question again copyright and patents), we can only stay clear and work together with what is here. We can explain the reasoning, but as already noted: If all of this is not sufficient, nobody is able to change the mind of others, besides everyone has a responsibility and no one can be spoken free from it: The point is then that we can surely hold our hands on our ears, singing meanwhile and not listening. But this does not change neither the problems nor reality in a whole as every brandnew device stays a damage.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

7 (edited by zapper 2022-10-11 12:36:12)

Re: Future of GPUs

Microwatt also exists, but yeah, I think Libre-Soc is a better option, IF it can become a reality. 

@PublicLewdness
"Specifically to the point of "Do we really need the best graphics?" the issue is more value than graphics. Can you imagine trying to explain to someone whose primary hobby is gaming that even if they are willing to dump all closed source games and just use FOSS ones that they will be spending amounts like $7000 USD on a Talos II or $2100 CAD on a Librebooted D16 to be able to play some FOSS games on low settings ? Do you realize how insane that sounds to the average person ? Even spending $600 CAD on a Librebooted laptop to play FOSS games on low settings is poor value."

The second one is meh... however, the first one is beyond insane, it is madness even as far as I am concerned.

I once used X200 for a low graphics setting game by blizzard starcraft, which I have since quit for good due to time waste and addiction potential.

I also used an X230 for starcraft 2 is the same situation, again low graphics settings. 

Though you do have to remember, for me, newer graphics mean zilch, nothing.

Also, the newer games, meaning, 2000s and definitely 2013+ have no meaning to me now, regarding PC ones. As for the libre games, if they made more with a retro feel, like an N64 type feel, although obviously not in a way to get in trouble for infringement, sucks that this is even a thing btw... but yeah, the libre games just look too modern mostly.

This is why I also dislike the more modern computer games in general, they focus on eye candy too an insanely absurd level.  If the game doesn't have good settings, customization, gameplay, then no amount of shiny eye candy, should mean damn near anything.

I mean unless, the people they target are okay with getting their reality blurred to where they don't know what's real and whats not.

That is a huge problem I actually SUFFERED with consoles like xbox 360 long ago and newer. Only ever played one game on Xbox 360 mostly, then I ditched it when I realized the issues were huge for me.

Also, it tired me out like after an hour play, where as the N64,  it took maybe 5x longer... aka, my eyes

tongue

Also, I cannot imagine how much VR has amplified these and other problems, but I hope people start realizing, all this "reality ideals"

Whether it is staged tv, VR, CGI, etc... is really just doing damage to people's minds and eyes.

The difference being, animated graphics like DOS to N64, you escaped reality into one, that felt alienish and in some ways, the nostalgia factor relaxed you.

Not the case now!

People strange...

:s

Btw, I have actually had tech purchased that is close to 1500$+ for compling/specific games/multitasking.

And, even for that matter, 800$+ for tthis in general.

So it really depends, on what your aim is and how far you are willing to go.

Most people don't, either because they don't give a crap about privacy, or they feel it is futile, which is most people.

I believe the first option is more sociopathic or apathetic to be clear tho.

But yeah, I do this, for two reasons:

Make these obnoxious corporate goons work very hard to actually get what they want from me and also, not be spied on by default or on my desktop as a whole.

I don't know if this is possible on the web, alas...

sad

Meh...

Always worth a try tho.

Talos is though definitely something that is too damn expensive.

Maybe if an ultra mega lightweight 10W TDP processor comes out with at least the speed of an X230 for Libre-Soc, this would begin to change regarding people ditching x86 for the future.

Not sure.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Future of GPUs

Just a note, as a proposition... didn't know if I should make a new thread, or not... but I wondered about this regarding debian regarding blobs...

If people want to install them,  before they can, I had a thought, of a warning screen that says:

Warning! Be aware if you install this blob, your privacy and security will be weakened! Might be a little, might be a lot!
IF you don't like this as being required, for your computer, PLEASE HELP in freeing THIS hardware from needing said BLOB!
Otherwise, this issue will REMAIN!

Whether it is:
wifi
ethernet
usb
graphics not just 3D either
sound
bios as a whole
Or just any blobs that are a remote threat on any level.

Or at the bare minimum, coreboot + intel me disabled and any other remote blobs disabled and/or replaced and again mention how completely freeing the hardware would be wise to work on, etc...

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

9 (edited by throgh 2022-12-05 21:33:04)

Re: Future of GPUs

@zapper on StarCraft, you have Stratagus:

https://github.com/Wargus/stratagus



OFC on roguelikes you have my beloved Slashem and Dungeon Crawl. No powerful GPU needed.

Onpon (I met him at Trisquel forums) has some nice libre games too, such as Hexoshi, a Metroid clone:

https://github.com/hexoshi/hexoshi

Retux is cool, too:

https://github.com/retux-game/retux

EDIT FROM MODERATION: Removed link to non-free project. Please don't recommend them within those discussions here where all is focussed on free culture. Thank you!

10 (edited by anthk 2022-12-05 13:14:39)

Re: Future of GPUs

Also, I forgot: A modified fork for Stratagus, with a game made with free content:

https://github.com/andrettin/wyrmgus

The data repo:

https://github.com/andrettin/wyrmsun

Not much, and Battle for Wesnoth it's far superior, but for a libre and lightweight RTS game, it's fine.

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Re: Future of GPUs

Wyrmsun is already in the repositories: https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/?so … ;q=wyrmsun
Besides to mention that this would be the "last libre version" per strict definition. All newer releases since the one in the repositories here need qt-location, which is a concurrent breach of privacy and freedom. We have listed geoclue for enabling geospatial awareness in applications (physical location tracking software) and the same is used also within qt-location as module. Without that wyrmsun is not possible being built and patching this out is way more work than needed.

stratagus itself is a nice project but all others like stargus are not free and libre projects as they need the non-free data from games like StarCraft. Please don't recommend them here within this part of the forum. You can do that nevertheless within "General" for example. Thanks!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!