1 Topic by MamãoMutante

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Topic: On Proprietary Websites

I have noticed that many websites have extreme restrictions imposed upon them, where the TOS serves as a license to forbid almost all forms of copying and modification of non-user works. Many news sites do this; Fandom and Github too. I have noticed that some companies (such as Vox Media, LCC; Fandango and Hearst) will hold copywrong over a very large amount of websites, most (if not all) of them proprietary. Some of these proprietary TOSes make it clear that the copywrong holder won't listen to criticism: if you disagree with the terms, the TOS affirms that your only option is for you to get lost and stop visiting the website altogether.

This means that these companies can do all sorts of questionable things to the websites and their users (such as cloudflaring the websites, reporting their users to LEAs, engaging in censorship, stuffing the websites with bloatware javascript, and more), and no one can host an independent, better version of the websites without potentially being harassed for violating the copywrong brought by the TOS.

Some websites such as www.fsf.org tend to be a bit more permissive with licensing, but they still don't go far enough, as their No-Derivates clause makes it much harder to build upon their work. Some complain that the FSF is not radical enough, and I agree, so it might be good for people to be allowed to fork www.fsf.org and create their own, more radical version of it. The Debian and Libreboot people could also benefit from this as they disagree with the FSF on some aspects. Allowing derivates could quickly increase the ideological diversity in the free software community. The No-Derivates clause fails at its purpose as it is easy to misrepresent an author even without violating such clause (see the RationalWiki article on Quote-Mining, which shows how easy it is to misrepresent authors through Fair Use, therefore bypassing the clause). If the concern for authors being misrepresented is so huge, then you could just add a clause demanding that any modified works clearly state that they may not represent the author's original intent, or a clause demanding that any modified works alter the attribution to indicate that the work was modified by a third party. I dislike clauses in general, but atleast the latter don't make the work proprietary.

Wikihow, Uncyclopedia and xkcd have non-commercial restrictions. I don't make commercial use of websites, atleast not yet, but I respect the people who wish to do so as we sadly live in a system that punishes those who don't engage in commercialization, and I fear that non-commercial restrictions could make it extremely hard for forks to gather up enough money, so I oppose these restrictions.

To fix this proprietariness in websites, I think we should do the following:
1. Do a full boycott on the websites that deliberately try to restrict their works. This may seem daunting, but I am writing a hosts file that should make this easier by blocking connections to websites that engage in copywrong restrictions.
2. Ask the authors of small websites to release their works under public domain or under a license that respects the four freedoms, and explain to them why this is important. As these small websites tend to be less corporate, it will be easier to convert them to freedom. This could quickly increase the amount of libre websites available. We could also try to convice the  gopher and gemini people to liberate their sites
3. Engage in websites that try to respect the 4 freedoms, such as zortazert.codeberg.page, wikispooks.com, www.tastyfish.cz, eff.org, hacktivis.me, wizards-of-os.org, faow.referata.com, tilde.club/~xwindows/art, questioncopyright.org, gemini.techrights.org, spyware.neocities.org, billdietrich.me, mikegerwitz.com, croatianhistory.net, blog.ncase.me, rationalwiki.org, freepd.com.

2 Reply by anthk

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

You can use XKCD without JS perfectly:  https://m.xkcd.com  Lots of them work under Dillo/Lynx :  https://text.npr.org https://slashdot.org (switch the user agent to Lynx) https://simple-web.org  Here you have JS less interfaces (and URL replacementes)  for services such as YT videos, GG translate, Medium's JS bloat and so on.

3 Reply by auanta

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

Sorry but there's no way I'm going to boycott websites especially the ones I have to use for daily life. Boycotts also have a limited impact. The only way to solve the problem correctly and permanently is to introduce regulations into the industry requiring that all software respect the 4 freedoms.

4 Reply by throgh

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

It is not really some kind of "boycott" when it is more the essential question if websites need to be full with JavaScript-actions making them impossible in usage with any kind of more lightweight client-solution, meaning then the "browser". And nowadays the thought is there that JavaScript, bunch of not optimized in size imagery and many more parts are needed for the "full living".

A regulation won't bring the solution for that as to less people have not understood the roots of the problems even only on the technical scale. But that's just first the used oversizing of the websites. When going further: There is the social component with exclusion of "older hardware" and the ecological impact on the environment itself is not even far away. And going with the ruleset: Only if people state a clear NO towards those methods we can reach out for more and better solutions. So my personal proposal would be and stays first on explanation why there are problems. It is then the personal decision what to do, but we should be also aware that we won't get back more lightweight solutions on the layer of political decisions. It would be more that people embrace their own technical emancipation, see why there is an impact through overloaded soft- / hardware and confront the industry and political groups with a clear, steady decision.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

5 Reply by auanta (edited by auanta 2023-02-28 21:16:51)

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

It is because of economic and political/legal warfare that software libre is marginalized, just like other issues of respect for humanity and life, "human rights", "the rights of mother earth", "labor rights".

Only a lucky minority of people can make the lifestyle changes. The rest need to be empowered to access it. That is the difference between a "usergroup" and a "movement". The economy is too powerful to make systemic change by personal choice. There is no such thing as "choice" when the majority of the world does not have access. Most of the world, if they have internet, can only use an "outdated" Android "smart"phone. This was done intentionally by the global north. However, global south countries are building infrastructure and with this more and more may potentially have access to the choice of GNU software rather than imperializing software lock-in by M$ and G00gle. That is, they too might have their own golden age of 'hacking' on software libre -- or golden ages! Hyperbola, a Brazilian distro, is really an example of this trend, and could champion it if we accept that 'we' are different from global north distros.

I imagine every nation developing its own distro (or more, if they want). Actually, plenty have already chosen to create their own GNU distros. All the countries that wanted to roll their own used GNU/Linux to do it, to protect their security and what we call dogfooding, but software libre enthusiasts have been popping up in every corner of the world now. This must be why the Five Eyes view software libre as a threat and seek to undermine even the Linux kernel now, because entire countries have developed alternatives to M$ and Appl$, entrusting their national security to GNU based software. **Those were government-backed projects.**

Software libre is naturally popular but mainly in the global south, with countries like China, which is the industry leader of the modern tech industry. India has the largest number of software developers, iirc. The global north does not "feel" the disastrous, wasteful, polluting impacts of proprietary and nonfree software as deeply as the global south, who paid for the development of computers with literal sweat and blood. US and Europe are mainly consumers, the industry has changed a lot over the decades, they produce a lot of fluff. That is why in the global north there exists opportunists of software libre, the "open source" corporate encirclement. That is why even the most 'radical' of them are still too complacent. But also, there have been declining literacy rates in the West (the US at least) for decades.

If software libre is to win, it must adapt to economic realities. There's no way to opt out of this. That which does not move with the economy, dies. Therefore if we are to win, we must fight back economically and legally. All fights for human needs begin and end there.

When software libre is enforced and protected by the government, it gets into the hands of the people and the people through their direct experience of its joys will come to value and respect the 4 freedoms. They cannot value something they never had the rare joy of experiencing. How do you introduce the joys of books, reading, and literacy? You teach the people to read. How do you get the people to learn to read? You introduce public schooling and literacy efforts through the government.

6 Reply by throgh

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

Sorry but this is a big NO from my side at this point.

auanta wrote:

It is because of economic and political/legal warfare that software libre is marginalized, just like other issues of respect for humanity and life, "human rights", "the rights of mother earth", "labor rights".

Only a lucky minority of people can make the lifestyle changes. The rest need to be empowered to access it. That is the difference between a "usergroup" and a "movement". The economy is too powerful to make systemic change by personal choice. There is no such thing as "choice" when the majority of the world does not have access. Most of the world, if they have internet, can only use an "outdated" Android "smart"phone. This was done intentionally by the global north. However, global south countries are building infrastructure and with this more and more may potentially have access to the choice of GNU software rather than imperializing software lock-in by M$ and G00gle. That is, they too might have their own golden age of 'hacking' on software libre -- or golden ages! Hyperbola, a Brazilian distro, is really an example of this trend, and could champion it if we accept that 'we' are different from global north distros.

Please don't use wordings and phrases like you have done for Microsoft or / and Google. You can criticize them without making slurs from them. The essential reasoning here? You are handing out blunt harsh points to make attacks and ad hominem arguments on this discussion, the forum in general and in the end Hyperbola as project. We don't want to use those wordings here in any way: Play the ball, with reference on our social contract. This is essential. And please don't make any kind of competition between south and north, west and east, they and us. This is not the way to argument or any kind of good argument making reasonable points forward. Especially those points like "outdated Android devices" being "done intentional". That is pure hearsaying.

auanta wrote:

I imagine every nation developing its own distro (or more, if they want). Actually, plenty have already chosen to create their own GNU distros. All the countries that wanted to roll their own used GNU/Linux to do it, to protect their security and what we call dogfooding, but software libre enthusiasts have been popping up in every corner of the world now. This must be why the Five Eyes view software libre as a threat and seek to undermine even the Linux kernel now, because entire countries have developed alternatives to M$ and Appl$, entrusting their national security to GNU based software. **Those were government-backed projects.**

Again: Hearsaying and I again refer to the point not to use slurs.

auanta wrote:

Software libre is naturally popular but mainly in the global south, with countries like China, which is the industry leader of the modern tech industry. India has the largest number of software developers, iirc. The global north does not "feel" the disastrous, wasteful, polluting impacts of proprietary and nonfree software as deeply as the global south, who paid for the development of computers with literal sweat and blood. US and Europe are mainly consumers, the industry has changed a lot over the decades, they produce a lot of fluff. That is why in the global north there exists opportunists of software libre, the "open source" corporate encirclement. That is why even the most 'radical' of them are still too complacent. But also, there have been declining literacy rates in the West (the US at least) for decades.

If software libre is to win, it must adapt to economic realities. There's no way to opt out of this. That which does not move with the economy, dies. Therefore if we are to win, we must fight back economically and legally. All fights for human needs begin and end there.

When software libre is enforced and protected by the government, it gets into the hands of the people and the people through their direct experience of its joys will come to value and respect the 4 freedoms. They cannot value something they never had the rare joy of experiencing. How do you introduce the joys of books, reading, and literacy? You teach the people to read. How do you get the people to learn to read? You introduce public schooling and literacy efforts through the government.

Would you mind? Your perspective is very single-sided only onwards possible attacking. Besides that you have not really reacted towards the points given before, but again: I don't think it is in any way helpful playing something like "we against them". Also the point: Adapting "economic realities": What do you think will happen for sure with free and libre software? Come on take a look on top of the so-called "economic realities" we have for now. You think there is something left from the essential parts for free and libre software, hardware and culture? Sorry, but nope. Therefore also my essential "NO" at the start of this answer here. Teaching the people to read is one thing, but teaching first also the essentials, the high and down of good parts for a software, for a good design and therefore also learning about what can bring up lightweight design and technical emancipation. This is ALL NOT depending on any geopolitical situation, NOT depending on some nations perspective, NOT depending on some personal perspective. Just because we think here it is a quite a different thing and valuable does not mean everyone is having the same perspective. And sorry, but to work with shortened perspectives like "economic realities" will bring down any kind of idealism in reference towards pure pragmatism.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

7 Reply by throgh

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

To get this straight forward: Teaching free and libre software, free and libre culture, is something coming up from a wish direct within the society. Driven by without any kind of nations purpose, driven by without any kind of political perspective besides the one being surely only oriented on humanistic approaches, will end up again in pragmatism. That's the reasoning for my NO, to be clear. I understand what you want to reach, but it is for a reasoning to state worldwide for all beings: "We the people want" ... not just from one nation, one state or one land. When we ever want to drive something towards a better status quo we need to review our own perspective, our own living conditions in relation towards all other earthlings, discuss, compare and help each other. And by earthlings I mean for sure ALL kind of inhabitants of our earth. Solving social issues with technology is impossible, not working in any way and ending up in a misery and more suffering. Solving social issues with social engagement, independent from roots, from any kind of nation or something else: That is what Hyperbola is standing for as we can only solve technical issues with technical emancipation and not social issues!

Make a difference, by doing different. Fighting a fight? Fine, but with words. Everything else end up bad from the concurrent point. And attacking with slurs, senseless imagery (generic meant) and more ... helps for sure on any point of anger, but not solving the way forward for this project. wink

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

8 Reply by throgh

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Re: On Proprietary Websites

I'll take therefore an easy point: Yes, we could be angry on every part for Apple, Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon or whatever company-name else. Sure thing. Does this help? Knowing the projects depending on them, is different. We can deny them, orient onto other parts and search for alternatives. But do we need to give more attack-surfaces? Because this is nothing else: Just an attack-surface and Hyperbola has nothing won to be into those debates. So we keep ourselves out of those for a reason, we don't attend within them and we have also no interest to engage within. We just don't use problematic packages we have identified and we give a clear reasoning for doing so. To make something more out of that makes Hyperbola something we have no time and interest for. I point therefore on another thread: https://forums.hyperbola.info/viewtopic.php?id=283

This one was a collection of so many parts, so many points to be angry. But does it help to be angry all-time? Critical thinking is fine and nevertheless the same way: Does this help without having good reasoning? Hyperbola as project is just oriented on reasoning and arguments. We cannot remove something we have no reasoning for - just as an example. We don't criticize other projects doing something different as we have not their full picture doing that in this way. Why should we do this? We can criticize the Linux-kernel (without GNU). We can also criticize the GNU-project itself being ignorant - yes, we do so on many levels. Nevertheless: It is their decision and does it help to stay back then with anger? I would say: No it does not. Looking forward to make something different.

Thread therefore closed!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!