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Topic: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

If you want to follow us : https://mamot.fr/@hyperbola

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

federated server software good, shadowbanning bad.

i knew a guy that was using it for months, not realising he was shadowbanned until someone finally pointed it out.

good software, bad design, too much censorship. im not a fan of micro-managing communication platforms. discourse is another nightmare, plus ive watched it have 30-second delays loading its bloat on machines with fewer than 2 cores.

this forum is fine, most are fine.

for what its worth, im sure im the only person here who feels that way about it. all the more reason to mention it-- no one else will.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

freemedia wrote:

good software, bad design, too much censorship.

Could you explain how the censorship is enforced ? I don't really understand how the whole thing works.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

there are good writeups about it, which i say out of laziness and the fact that i wont do them justice.

basically the authors werent bent on it, but some of the users were. this resulted in software that was better for crowd control than something that relies on self-configuration more, like a killfile.

but i draw the line at shadowbanning. whoever runs an instance can ban you and you might not know. after leaving reddit over stuff like that, im not about to go somewhere else that does it too. and its not just a feature, it gets used. though ive heard which instance you use can make quite the difference-- of course it would.

i used diaspora, i also used identi.ca.

federated is good, im here: https://peertube.jorropo.ovh/video-chan … c107b225ac

i dont want to rant about federated social media tools all day, but i could for a while. i simply wont use one that shadowbans people, because that just results in too many problems i wont tolerate.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

I think "censorship" is a very harsh accusation. It depends already on the behaviour of the participant and the content shared all around the networks. And speaking about myself: I'm tired about reading "free speech" for example which is coming up most of the time when talking about "censorship". The personal freedom ends right at the point when freedom of others, their dignity and their basic human rights are just cut off using this "right".

I have used Diaspora, Libertree and GNU-social for quite some time. The thing about is the self-deception coming up right from the users not from the software. Speaking about "free, libre software" and just using sources like YouTube, Twitter and Facebook in form of links. Attacking others for thoughts shared and being strict about unfree packages / sources / links and of course the known problems of meritocracical thoughts coming up. Some of the project members have a really rude behaviour - excluding GNU-social, that's another story. So I'd questioning the concept of "social media" in a whole. Besides that Facebook, Twitter and YouTube are even far from "social" at all!

6 (edited by freemedia 2018-11-01 18:40:51)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

I'm tired about reading "free speech"

well, you can always shadowban it, problem solved.

i think we are at a point where we are automating too much of our lives, and with all the new ways to interfere with the rights of others (heres a hint: dignity doesnt outclass all other rights-- in fact how someone can say they have dignity when other people are micromanaging their speech, i cant agree with them. dignity starts with basic rights, doesnt it-- and dignity is a lot more subjective sometimes) the more automation and control we have in our lives, the more people are going to talk about freedom of speech.

and the more youre going to be tired of hearing it.

to be perfectly honest, im entirely unsympathetic about that. most of the open source world is tired of hearing that non-free software is unethical-- i dont care at all about their feelings about that. the way to respect someones freedom when you dont like what theyre saying is to ignore them, not censor. but im sure youre tired of hearing that, too. ill just say again: im completely unsympathetic. it seems like thats a problem youre going to have to live with for a long time.

stephen fry:

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so ------- what."

everyone is entitled to their feelings. but those feelings are personal. if you want to please everyone, the best way to do that is to let them speak for you instead.

no thank you. if people arent allowed to say what they need to, it breaks democracy. i care more about freedom than democracy, but ill take democracy over being ruled by someone elses heartfelt, one-sided interpretation of what i say any day.

everyone thinks they know the real meaning of beatles lyrics. if they were better educated, theyd know how difficult that is, and why restructuring society based on one groups interpretation of everything people say is a horrible, unbelievably destructive and completely idiotic idea.

im terribly sorry if you find that offensive.

7 (edited by throgh 2018-11-01 18:45:15)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

Seriously: You're taking just one quote from the text and leave the rest without any further commentary? Well, that's your thing. But I've just noted: The personal freedom is one real good thing to be respected. But with freedom there is also responsibility and that's the point I'm talking about. You've just ignored it for what reason. I care very much about freedom, but I also care about living with people of all countries, giving each other respect. Diversity is a keyword and that's included within "freedom of speech". As I've said before: I'm just tired reading about that from people, who also just share very ugly hatred for example. That's just an example, not meant to you in person! And I just don't respect people sharing racism for example: Have found enough of that within the named networks, especially Diaspora and also enough within Mastodon. When trying to ask for the reason, trying to discuss about solutions, everything else is ignored. So in the end: Yes, tired about this hatred just being masked as "freedom of speech". My freedom ends just at the point when others are harmed! And I take my personal freedom to stand up against that concept. There are enough words taken over by misanthropic attitudes and "social networks" are just a big lie when people are reduced to some numbers. Being shut down, when you have no further interest for example. Besides the described problems above that's my major point at all.

8 (edited by freemedia 2018-11-01 19:09:19)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

oh if you want a full-fledged discussion thats fine-- the problem is, i dont think you can tell the difference between your goals and the outcome. im convinced that if you could tell, you wouldnt believe so strongly in your goals. in fact, ive only assumed your goals. lets find out if i was right.

i would prefer we learn from history. when fascism (or anything like it) erupts, it looks for a cause, for someone to defend. then it puts that cause above all others-- above freedom.

every bad idea thats trotted out is glued to that cause, and anyone who rejects that idea is charged with being against the ends, rather than the means.

you want people to be treated with more respect, i dont want people to be shadowbanned. at best, the side effect is censorship, but you make an argument that assumes "it isnt censorship because its for a good cause that freedom cant justify" (my version of what you said.)

the thing is, its not an honest argument. any time someone points out the flaws with it, the assumption that the cause outweighs that never even flinches. there is no legitimate counter-argument, ever, because there never was an argument in the first place. it was all asserted.

the person i know who wrote about the censorship on this platform wasnt shadowbanned for disrespecting anybody. he hit a rate limiter, and was shadowbanned for that.

you just assumed it has something to you with your beliefs. youre tired of hearing counter arguments because people should just agree with you. you identify with the cause, and the cause is right, so how can anyone disagree and be right?

is there even the possibility at all that youre glossing over important, less convenient aspects of the very thing youre talking about? because it sounds very one-sided to me.

i could always be wrong. but lets start with the obvious-- you did, you assumed it was about people denying others dignity. i think shadowbanning is a great way to deny someone their dignity-- let them spend days or weeks talking to themselves, under the fraudulent guise of being on social media.

or just be free and dont use the platform. ive watched communities and speech get destroyed by tools like this-- why would i ever endorse or participate in one?

freedom isnt the right to do what everyone else approves of. you dont really need permission for that.

but i could go on, so if youre not satisified yet, lets hear it.

at least if we have that conversation here, if the post shows up, we know we can read what each other is saying if we both want to. thats a pretty nice feature! its kind of a dealbreaker for me if a platform lacks something that simple and necessary, especially if its designed to.

9 (edited by throgh 2018-11-01 20:10:02)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

Well I think most of your points are just right. And I also think that we have also same ways, just expressing it with other backgrounds and thoughts or better experiences. So first things first: Learning from history would be the very basic. So nobody is free from being on the really wrong way, in the very bad, wrong direction. Shadowbanning is indeed a bad thing, but to be honest: What was the reason? There is always some reason and our world is not very easy to understand those days. But we also try to find easy, deterministic explanations for very complex issues. Social conversations - our talk here is one good example - are always complex and when reduced to the medium text also risky being just one-dimensional because it can be part of the wrong interpretation. From my point of view we should even talk and write more, express more thoughts, talk about them and being part of learning groups. Taking more out of history!

And yes: I had many talks about "freedom" for example. But most of the time it's just the personal "freedom"! So I'm a great fan / friend of freedom for everyone and I don't understand the concept being attacked within those networks. Regarding that point another example: I'm not convinced from systemd and the concepts being more than INIT. Writing about that is a personal point, there can be always questions about that. But why those attacks? Why having people around talking about respect and than being just not respectful, even very harsh, outrageous? So I was member on Diaspora for about three years and had first very good talks, long discussions, but this ended when there was more coming up from the mentality of Facebook. Yes, Diaspora wanted to be the better Facebook. The same way with GNU-social or better the Fediverse, when Mastodon wanted to be the better Twitter. Starting good, even very good and interesting, but than going down under the same way mentioned before. And will always be the same from my point of view, because "social networks" just copy the known paradigm of presentation instead conversation.

A wise sentence I have read once: It doesn't matter for the bullet coming up from the gun of a progressive rebel or conservative nationalist, in the end it will destroy and kill. I know that's very far away now, very wide from the viewing, but there are many discussions becoming harsh these days. So to note: Thanks for your perspective and personally I'm not offended. It's just I want to warn about the tendencies, about declining to learn from history and decline own responsibilities. We could do better! And I hope that you don't feel offended. That was not my intention. The problem are those wordings, because I think those networks are not helpful when they pass defining other paradigms and instead taking over everything known from others, proprietary ones, closed or even walled gardens. The modern way of narcissism: Just posting about myself instead giving insights, starting discussions and talks. There is or better was a high chance doing it better, becoming REAL social networks, networks for thoughts and freedom. But I have to admit: This train left the station.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

fascinated that you mention narcissism and systemd, i wrote about both of those (narcissism was "chapter 2") in a 40-page open letter (very short chapters, if its 40 pages) linked to on this forum.

eee is just software, systemd is just init. will be curious what ibm does with it.

freedom does go beyond personal freedom, though thats where it starts. working out freedom for everyone is worthwhile, ill gladly give you that-- but its a lot trickier and a lot of solutions (speaking more broadly than of freedom) are still worse than the problems. otherwise we would have already solved them.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

freemedia wrote:

fascinated that you mention narcissism and systemd, i wrote about both of those (narcissism was "chapter 2") in a 40-page open letter (very short chapters, if its 40 pages) linked to on this forum.

eee is just software, systemd is just init. will be curious what ibm does with it.

freedom does go beyond personal freedom, though thats where it starts. working out freedom for everyone is worthwhile, ill gladly give you that-- but its a lot trickier and a lot of solutions (speaking more broadly than of freedom) are still worse than the problems. otherwise we would have already solved them.

Correct: Not easy at all and there are many worse solutions, absolutely correct. That would be already one point of criticism against Mastodon: Instead using small instances there are big nodes with more than ten thousands of participants (accounts). One point of irrational thought to "manage" that amount, even thinking about is irrational. Besides that the Fediverse could be a nice place and there are many nice people now. But as you also noted: Learning from history, meaning also learning not to just copy proprietary closed-source software and applications. And with every "We are the better [INSERT NAME HERE]!" nothing will be changed.

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

completely agreed, though the number of participants vs. nodes is probably difficult to get around, because of network effects and the most realistic expectations for everyone to run their own node.

the problems inherent with the distribution youre describing as the current one however, also agreed.

for identi.ca or diaspora, the problem was obvious. it was too much effort for most people to setup a node. even if they could do it and knew they could do it, there was enough difference between hosting and joining that it was much easier to just join one.

its trivial to host your own wiki, its less trivial to host your own mediawiki (one type of wiki.) scale is different, so people choose media wiki either because they know it will scale or because they want to brag that they got it running (even if its not the hardest thing to do in the world.)

if you want a maximum number of nodes (and because of network effects, im not 100% certain you do-- because 10,000 nodes might/not give you as many participants as 2,000 with many users-- but because of freedom, you certainly ideally would) then you would want to look to software designs less like mediawiki and more like transmission.

how about a client program that can be switched to host mode? thats what the easiest p2p software has done for about 20 years.

make it so you can run this program, give it a web interface with the port determined by command line switches, like the server that comes with python. people can write a one-line script to background it, make it as easy to run your own instance as it is to leave transmission running, and hey-- if it doesnt scale to thoudands of users-- well, you didnt want too many users per node anyway-- right?

bonus points if as much as possible is done in python. once you get away from languages that require recompiling and a greater amount of skill, you give the users an opportunity to make improvements to the client/host. all depending how you do it, of course.

people are always complaining that feature p doesnt exist. they have the freedom to change that, but most people dont design software to maximise the number of people that can. im not saying that should be a hard rule in design at all, sometimes you dont even want that.

i do think we should try that out more often, if it were a goal more often i think we would have a lot more people learning to contribute or at least sharing more information on how to tweak/improve the design. it wont help this platform, though i would love it for future ones.

13 (edited by throgh 2018-11-02 09:28:00)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

freemedia wrote:

completely agreed, though the number of participants vs. nodes is probably difficult to get around, because of network effects and the most realistic expectations for everyone to run their own node.

the problems inherent with the distribution youre describing as the current one however, also agreed.

for identi.ca or diaspora, the problem was obvious. it was too much effort for most people to setup a node. even if they could do it and knew they could do it, there was enough difference between hosting and joining that it was much easier to just join one.

its trivial to host your own wiki, its less trivial to host your own mediawiki (one type of wiki.) scale is different, so people choose media wiki either because they know it will scale or because they want to brag that they got it running (even if its not the hardest thing to do in the world.)

if you want a maximum number of nodes (and because of network effects, im not 100% certain you do-- because 10,000 nodes might/not give you as many participants as 2,000 with many users-- but because of freedom, you certainly ideally would) then you would want to look to software designs less like mediawiki and more like transmission.

how about a client program that can be switched to host mode? thats what the easiest p2p software has done for about 20 years.

make it so you can run this program, give it a web interface with the port determined by command line switches, like the server that comes with python. people can write a one-line script to background it, make it as easy to run your own instance as it is to leave transmission running, and hey-- if it doesnt scale to thoudands of users-- well, you didnt want too many users per node anyway-- right?

bonus points if as much as possible is done in python. once you get away from languages that require recompiling and a greater amount of skill, you give the users an opportunity to make improvements to the client/host. all depending how you do it, of course.

people are always complaining that feature p doesnt exist. they have the freedom to change that, but most people dont design software to maximise the number of people that can. im not saying that should be a hard rule in design at all, sometimes you dont even want that.

i do think we should try that out more often, if it were a goal more often i think we would have a lot more people learning to contribute or at least sharing more information on how to tweak/improve the design. it wont help this platform, though i would love it for future ones.

Yes, trying even more decentralization would be very good. Even more from the pure P2P-concept and from my understanding projects like Retroshare are just heading into this direction. Also Hubzilla is one interesting project to mention because of its "nomadic identity"-feature making it even more easier to migrate from one node to another. Both projects use different approaches: Hubzilla is comparable to Diaspora because it is using a server-system. Retroshare is using the complete P2P-mode! And I think the combination of both projects would be a good way into one interesting direction.

In the end we have many problems regarding "open-source": Just to mention the takeover for Red Hat from IBM - what could this mean for systemd in the future? Microsoft buying Github where many projects are hosted with their source-repositories. Just regarding the last example mentioned: Alone this point gives me thoughts because Diaspora uses this as base. And what about Oracle and their licensing for the JDK (Java)? Many questions and most without answers from the communities worldwide. No solutions, just more presentation without conversation. Therefore I don't think Hyperbola is needing an account within the Fediverse. Better would be having the first step made for decentralized information: People could communicate and talk, coming up here. The reasoning? Those accounts need also attention and I think exactly this attention is better used here in the distribution.

14 (edited by freemedia 2018-11-02 12:21:22)

Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

nice. incidentally, ive spent the past several days talking to people (not many) about systemd and ibm, and i said its hard to guess because theyre sort of like jacques clouseau in that they appear to just bumble around doing things that make no sense and seem to have no successful outcome, and yet theyre always fine.

"you idiot! that was a 34 billion dollar acquisition!"

"not anymurrrrr..."

but above all i have spent the past year turning my penchant for futurism towards the concept of the distribution itself, and (as always) the fsf, the free software movement, and free culture and oer.

systemd definitely helped spark this, as before i was very content just installing debian 7 on used laptops and giving them away. but i had absolutely zero desire to do this with systemd on them. it threw too many unknowns into a system i chose for being on the other end of the spectrum. red hat was known for its desire to change things, and for you to change with them. debian was known for stability.

of course we never get away from myths entirely, even in the tech world.

but i think youre touching on something i wish i could put in a much larger font, on a lot more pages, and its that no matter how many of these tools we make, i swear that people are talking less about these things. or maybe i just keep expecting that its going to go farther than it does.

but its like allergy to conversation was a rare thing becoming increasingly common, where half the conversation is always people avoiding topics or trying to stop them.

or weve sort of gotten to the point where any discussion is treated as a disruption to itself, and therefore to avoid conversations going wrong we just kill them in the womb.

right-- thats what it is. we are in a futuristic world of conversation where everyone can find out what their unborn baby of an online exchange will look like and how it will live when its 30 years old, and from that everyone decides whether to keep it or abort.

id cynically time it around when everybody went to facebook, but the thing is-- they never come back.

heres the problem federation hasnt solved yet-- discovery. if it did solve it, it should be 100 times better than anything else. nothing else would have a real chance.

or it would be a 100 times worse. im not sure anybody can decide that one, and neither can i. either way, i suspect that cynicism and superficiality are winning the war at the moment. and this isnt because i was unhappy with the the outcome of an election.

i thought the world was pretty much already like this. its interesting to find so many people suddenly in agreement on the very symptoms they were thrilled to ignore before-- even if we get farther from the causes.

one person im talking to seems to think that doing it in person helps. the more we build and upgrade (and downgrade) the global network, the more it seems to get tied to specific locations. it is very nice that we can publish all over the world for free, though. if anybody actually wants to, that is.

whats everyone going to do after all this technology gives them the power to do it? before i read about the fpga, i hoped it would make everything more compatible. it wasnt the fpga that did that, it was free licenses and network protocols and portable languages, but then what?

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Re: Hyperbola is on Mastodon!

I have to admit - wrote this earlier in the thread as you know: First I was very convinced about the idea behind decentralized networks, but after all those tried out ... everything is just repeating. Even it's going faster now: The conversation stops while the presentation is going up. It seems more about some kind of presenting the own selfimage at all instead of finding ways for everybody, with concentration around real free ideals for example and with boundaries solved. I had my ideas on GNU/Linux most of the time, even when having Windows as main operating-system long ago. But with even more enforced applications and processes for my so-called "own good" I wanted to quit and found with Ubuntu my first home. The rest is common: I was unsettled with the way the system took. And so I was searching: First for distributions without systemd, later even more for systems with more freedom and through Parabola I found Hyperbola.

There is very much here I like about a real free, libre system. But is there a need for having social media when there is a forum for help and more? In the end all of this is gotten out of hands, even information and discussions. And having the four freedoms of libre software for a greater good, even for society to learn and adapt, would be possible. But for now it is out of range, so we have much work to do, as community. And talking about myself: Hyperbola made it possible to give me the interest back, experimenting and learning.