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Topic: Psychosis and Ungratitude

We free-software advocates tend to be psychotic/conspiratory (this might be the reason for throgh's "Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices"). I myself am suspected of having a Psychotic Disorder, plus autism, and I can see that others can also be quite afraid: I cite the example of a person here in the forums who hoped that there were indeed no evil plans to enslave the world, because they worried that if there were, then that the next one could be successful, whatever that means. Such psychosis might be common to most radical dissenting groups; they might feel like minorities who are constantly under threat of having their movement extinguished, or they fear the rise of a dystopian situation where resistance is no longer possible, they feel like they are running out of time and that the fate of the world is up to them.

I am NOT arguing against healthy caution, but there's a point where the caution is so obscessive that it causes more pain than the thing one is cautious of. Instead of appreciating the good things that we DO have, me and probably other people will keep focusing on the idea that there are still many bad things in the world and that we could lose the rights we have achieved so far. This behaviour is self-destructive, and also very ungrateful and rude!

I just had a nightmare where there was a security vulnerability in a piece of software, and it was exploited to show me creepy jumpscare-style images, thanks to the fact that I hadn't checked the signature of the software, thus leading to me downloading a malicious copy. I woke up fearful. Is this healthy caution or just psychosis? Will someone/something try to exploit me if I download things without checking the signature?

An example of me being unreasonably concerned is when it comes to GNU software: some people (minimalists and anti-copyleft activists) will act like it's the literal incarnation of the devil, with fire coming out of its feet and incinerating everything around it. The concerns of these people have gotten to my head. True, GNU isn't perfect, and I should take other people's concerns into consideration, but I also should take a bit more time to appreciate the honest work and ethical benefits of the GNU Project instead of pointlessly ruminating about other people's ideas that GNU software is "bloat" or "harmful". I've just read the Texinfo pages of GNU Bash, and guess what, Bash seems to actually be very neat and nice, and it's super-configurable and allows the disabling of a lot of options during the compile time, therefore GNU Bash isn't the diabolical bloat that someone would like me to believe.

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

Never said gnu bash was bloat. I haven't really thought about it too much though either.

Compared to the creation of java, javascript, rust, systemd, dbus, wayland, pulseaudio, pipewire, openssl, regular xorg, avahi and others, bash is probably just a tiny dot of bloat if at all.

I don't know too much about why some call bash bloat though, because I never bothered to look it up.

wink

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

I find it very, very problematic to do some diagnose throughout the "network". But as you mentioned my quote here, I think I explain it a bit nearer and more, because it is not about conspiracy, it is a generic warning. And because of this I write all the time about ignorance. I clearly don't believe in any "evil" plan or something like that. It is most and normally likewise our own ignorance bringing the bad mixing puzzle.

One example is the change of paradigm within hosting server-solutions: People think nowadays that there are even "serverless environments", which is pure wrong. There are for sure server-solutions, but hosted elsewhere most than within container-solutions and they are nevertheless vulnerable depending on the used software. That's a pure minor but nevertheless severe part of ignorance. And there is also more when we look back into history as people always telling themself "It won't be that bad" when authoritarian and fascist politicians are on the rise. That's also ignorance, but that kind severe that all is possible to fall apart. This all means we fight ignorance, not humans. We argument against ignorance and hatred, not against existance. I don't see there within any kind of conspiracy, just the normal reasonable way. But ignoring is surely the wrong way and telling to oneself "It won't be that bad" is also a merely and kind meant lie to go on with ignorance, while beings are already transported away or are discriminated. And I would also recommend that being too paranoid about all and everything to be seen as harmful way. Deeds are counting: Not all files are right away harmful and most the time an image-file is just an image-file. The source where the file is coming from is important, ignorance is for sure harmful and we should just bring up why we reject ignorance alone.

So the sentence is mostly a political meant statement, a warning to look close enough and think of possible the bad outcome. There is difference of what is meant within: Software / Hardware? Political ideals? Free and libre culture was, is and will be always political and it can't exist without its generic meant questions, including the way to transport information and give back the control in the hands of users.

Let us think a bit longer about possible outcome if others can decide what we are able to see and learn: With this selection it is going to get a problem, not because some people think others are "too sensible". That's nonsense, also to speak about "cancelling something / someone". But let's give this kind of thought for removals in the hands of a company thinking to do that "for the better": Also here is no "evil plan", just the thought of profit. But the outcome is not going to be "better" because there is something going to vanish, the possibility of choice is the first and more is to come. There are uncountable works around as series, movies, books and radioplays warning us, we just need to listen close enough. Some surely drive the "evil masterplan" again as part of their tale, others like Aldous Huxleys "Brave New World" do it different - yes, recommendation to read it.

Our future will most likely not be easy, mostly because of improbably large companies and sheer lobbying.
However, that does not mean that we are helpless in the face of it, but simply the opposite. Because every positive little thing can push a knocking dystopia a few steps backwards. That's the way this sentence is meant and that's why projects like Hyperbola are there! smile So I don't know who said that "bash" is probably bloatware (not even knowing in which category), but I also think we should never stop to look close enough. But we should also stop using comparisons for sure and also we are not within an endless fight (that is also not part of the sentence quoted). We are just doing what we do, because of different motivations. And I would recommend everybody not to search any kind of social solution within the "internet" alone. Go outside and look around, our world is so beautiful and so we have the duty to protect every piece of this beautiful ecosystem around us as to protect every being breathing and living. Combining this with the idea of free and libre culture (software and hardware) makes the decision clear and the sentence also.

The GNU-project itself is a fine idea, marked as the idea. But some of its further parts are nevertheless a problem: Either too many options or too less, ignorance as marked included. And we can rely on direct answers where project-maintainers think there cannot be a situation without Java and / or C#, while those languages are not the scope and not free and libre per definition. So there is only the choice to search for alternatives and Hyperbola has done that. The project meant here was and is gettext: Project-members asked exactly if there are build-options possible to exclude Java and C#, an answer was received that those elementary needed exclude options were not there and not scope, so Hyperbola did the obvious conclusion. Question would be: Is GNU harmful? Depending on the personal perspective, nevertheless that's also an example about minor ignorance. The all in all conclusion is that the GNU-project is not granting the full possible support and not all projects of GNU are helpful. Is that a problem? Yeah, for sure. Is this dangerous? I would say the way is a problem, but their decision. Ours to decide different. And here is the circle closing: As long as this is possible, there is emancipation. And as long as we help and support keeping this alive, we keep the dystopian future stepwise away, not only Hyperbola but everyone interested. It's quite too easy stating that all parts of GNU are problematic, it makes the perspective flat-like and that's surely wrong as the problem is quite different scaled. To draw the line also here: We have found a generic hostile reaction towards our project and some people seem to have a problem with Hyperbola's way of handling things. That's also part of the whole picture, not the most common one but nevertheless it is and was part as people make it easy for themself to not accept Hyperbola as individual and independent project, only to be seen as some kind of alternative "Parabola" - which we are absolutely not, and been never before.

Conclusion: I'm not okay with stating that someone has psychosis disorder throughout the "internet" and I'm also not okay to see that the "fate of the world is lying on Hyperbola". Nobody stated that from my perspective. But I'm also not okay that people want to define what "normality" should be alike. Such discussions and threads are not helpful from my opinion. They tend to go in the wrong direction, mixing different perspectives. You have used "psychosis" and "ungratitude" within the same context. No one here is not "grateful" towards anything, but I don't see us in the position also to be "grateful" if we are treated with hostility just because we hold up the mirror. smile
To diagnose a psychosis to someone or warning about that is a severe point drawn we should be very cautious about that and most reasonable stop doing that as we have for sure not all information about why someone is reacting on this or that way. And that's also my answer about possible nightmares: Please don't go that kind of deep, just stay cautious and critical which should be enough. When people tell you about being a "ghost" you know that this is enough as your are not that kind of transparent. Treat yourself and your data as everyone's data with respect and care. Just because people are holding up mirrors for situations or social issues, does not mean they want to attack all and everyone. But it is one poor conclusion we can draw that in our times change is hard and before many people accept something they even go for the ones holding just the mirrors for criticism. That's all to be seen nowadays and this makes the people holding the mirrors surely bitter tasting, giving up or going even more radicale. Personal stating: I tend for the bitterness, not for the rest. big_smile And I just think we should always remind ourself that paranoia can get out of hands, so I find it important that we bring self-reflection on a daily base into. Otherwise we can watch surely many examples where this goes out of hands and people are left in a dark place with darkest thoughts. As said: Our future is complicated and our reality is complex, but this does not mean we have to give into and this is that reasoning for a simple system where the call for newest parts is not the important point but stability is the major perspective. But it is also important that we can only help where help is wanted: If Hyperbola is treated bad likewise from individuals or others, we cannot help or collaborate as we like to and we just stay open here for the decision coming back for a talk in time perhaps ... as we can only come with democratic and friendly decisions, as we all handle with empathy and solidarity, strict sometimes for sure but oriented for friendly principles towards technical emancipation.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

@throgh I understand your concerns about what I've said and I now understand why my post is problematic; I'm really, really sorry. But thank you very much for the reply! <3

@zapper Yeah, sorry for the confusion, I wasn't referring to you when I was talking about people who consider Bash harmful. I now have become quite fond of Bash and I <3 love it <3, but as for some fair reasons as to why some might consider it harmful: it uses more physical memory and is much larger than shells such as mksh and dash, though still tiny and super lightweight in comparison to modern software. It is also not pure POSIX, it includes extensions to it even when invoked as "sh". Some might consider some of Bash's features such as programmable completion and aliases inconsistent, weird and/or problematic (Bash's documentation itself claims that functions are superior to aliases in most cases), though I believe that aliases and programmable completion should be kept since Bash seems to be really into configurability and user choice. Overall though, Bash is fine and awesome unless you are REALLY, REALLY strict about minimalism or aren't fine with copyleft. If so, you may prefer mksh, which is smaller, permissive-licensed and contains Emacs-like keybindings that should make a former bash user feel at home.

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

No need for being sorry: I think it is important to ask and talk about misunderstandings or need for explanations. Everyone makes different experiences and as I have explained that sentence is more generic meant as it would be good if we all as humans go for self-reflexion. With this in mind systems like Hyperbola have their special place and meaning. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

Also, besides what I said before, cpu usage should matter more than memory usage in most cases, if there are no other issues that any software for example bash has, etc...

That's all though.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

We should avoid to be too general oriented on resources: Only because we have more CPU-power and RAM available does not mean we should waste them at all. For me speaking: Both is relevant and there is too many software out there taking that not into account. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

throgh wrote:

We should avoid to be too general oriented on resources: Only because we have more CPU-power and RAM available does not mean we should waste them at all. For me speaking: Both is relevant and there is too many software out there taking that not into account. smile

Except, here's the thing... which is more likely to overheat the system, when the cpu is used more or the ram being used more?

Last I checked it was the CPU...

wink

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

I do jump through a lot iof burning hoops to replace bash. On Hyperbola, it is straightforward to just symlink /bin/sh to something else, and at least mksh and dash work nicely for the openrc init scripts, and those are closest to the default /bin/sh of the major *BSDs.i Replacing interactive shells is not a problem anywhere.I also like busybox as sh, but busybox is better statically linked, which in turn only works well with C libraries such as musl instead of glibc or the major BSD libcs.Pacman requires bash but does so explicitly in the hashbangs, so there is not the problem of hidden bashisms.I do not know whether there might be a problem with mksh being used in Android and dash having been introduced by Canonical. Does that make them corporate-funded?

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

zapper wrote:

Except, here's the thing... which is more likely to overheat the system, when the cpu is used more or the ram being used more?

Last I checked it was the CPU...

wink

To waste more RAM just because it is there, not to care about applications eating up memory, is also harmful. Especially when this leads into security leaks. The scenario you described is harmful for the system on a given time schedule, most called once when it is critical. The other scenario is harmful about a longer time period when not discovered and the more complex a system is, the longer it stays undiscovered. So I stay at both scenarios being not most helpful and better should be avoided. Besides: You can stop using sarcastic annotations. smile Not helpful within the talks and also not bringing more colours into. I understand what you mean, but only because I do others might see and read that different. To debate only about different aspects is quite a bit more, don't you think? So this is surely meant not as an attack, but as an invitation as I point therefore towards the second part of this posting.

Overheating through one application or bunch of applications is for sure a scenario, but the complexity is more of a point as it is not so easy to understand and therefore: Keeping the system lightweight.

schilling.klaus wrote:

I do jump through a lot iof burning hoops to replace bash. On Hyperbola, it is straightforward to just symlink /bin/sh to something else, and at least mksh and dash work nicely for the openrc init scripts, and those are closest to the default /bin/sh of the major *BSDs.i Replacing interactive shells is not a problem anywhere.I also like busybox as sh, but busybox is better statically linked, which in turn only works well with C libraries such as musl instead of glibc or the major BSD libcs.Pacman requires bash but does so explicitly in the hashbangs, so there is not the problem of hidden bashisms.I do not know whether there might be a problem with mksh being used in Android and dash having been introduced by Canonical. Does that make them corporate-funded?

I don't think we should call others that way: Everyone start as "new in one topic" and orienting on others is also common way to get into a favored group. So we better question the role-models in that groups instead of questioning the people entering and taking information without questioning (with reference on the sentence in the forum-signature from me).

While it is for sure interesting using something different likewise bash, the original intention of this thread was clearly something different and is now guided completely off-topic. HyperbolaBSD will surely use a different shell, as stated before. And hypertools likewise hyperman will user common POSIX-defaults. The issue there is a possible dependency to be removed so bash or every other shell can be used.

All in all: We should always stay critical and ask questions, especially when it comes to complete wrong role-models and as far I oversee that we have those for sure. Calling others "new" (I won't use the shortening name-scheme therefore) is not helping and relentless repeat something like bash is too bad is also not fitting. Is "bash" overheating any CPU? Is it wasting memory? Let's stay at the concrete points besides that always there has to be a choice and Hyperbola wants to grant this choice. But let's stay friendly, have a bit of patience and also explain the points more deep. Yes, that needs time, this needs also longer postings. But what is the alternative? Living with information going shortened and more shortened, while in the end there stays nothing but wrong guidance? Conservation of information, giving the possibility for beings to attend in information. That should be a good motivation. Not the alternative likewise being cynical. Sure possible in our time, but that's not helping free, libre culture.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

Oh that emoji is sarcastic? Aka, this? wink
I considered it to be a wink as in, I think you are aware of, "you know what I mean"

Not meant to be sarcastic, perhaps too confident or assuming you agree on some level, but nor sarcastic.

Good point though, more ram being eaten could be a security risk in some situations.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Psychosis and Ungratitude

Having a memory leak is a possible risk for security. As therefore all was said: I close this thread here now. smile
And yes I agree for sure, but I cannot assume that the talk between us two is also taken the same by all others outside so it may taken wrong. Reasoning for closure is therefore not our talk, but the point that it can be mistaken. Our priorities is for sure also to protect all forum-participants.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!