26

Re: no update ?

zapper wrote:
throgh wrote:

Thanks will take that back into the ticket. Is it okay to have also noted in another posting, how they had realized the singleton application-instance in earlier versions?

I found something that I think might work as well as gimp:

https://github.com/bgrabitmap/lazpaint/

for my needs it works at least, I searched for gimp alternatives and found this,  tell me if it has what you guys need and whatever it doesn't have, feel free to mention.

Actually this one might also work:  https://github.com/glimpse-editor/Glimpse

But lazpaint requires way less depends thats why I mentioned that one first. smile

Glimpse forces D-Bus like GIMP, maybe you could create a feature request to make D-Bus optional for building, so we could use it as GIMP replacement.

27 (edited by zapper 2020-11-22 23:04:05)

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:
zapper wrote:
throgh wrote:

Thanks will take that back into the ticket. Is it okay to have also noted in another posting, how they had realized the singleton application-instance in earlier versions?

I found something that I think might work as well as gimp:

https://github.com/bgrabitmap/lazpaint/

for my needs it works at least, I searched for gimp alternatives and found this,  tell me if it has what you guys need and whatever it doesn't have, feel free to mention.

Actually this one might also work:  https://github.com/glimpse-editor/Glimpse

But lazpaint requires way less depends thats why I mentioned that one first. smile

Glimpse forces D-Bus like GIMP, maybe you could create a feature request to make D-Bus optional for building, so we could use it as GIMP replacement.

Oh, didn't realize that... although, maybe they'd be more willing to get rid of said dependency than gimp. hmm...

What about krita?

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

28 (edited by throgh 2020-11-23 14:00:42)

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:

It is my response:

First of all, HyperbolaBSD is focused to be a minimalist operating system, so automatization is not welcomed here. Second, freedom of choice should be respected because is a way to give the option for users and distributions make the better choice under their own point of views, so force D-Bus is not the way because it's like treating us like cattle.

Independent of those points cited above, there are another issues related to D-Bus:

  • Bloated and over-engineered: Its C API is very annoying to use and requires writing large amounts of boilerplate code. In fact, the pure C API is so annoying that its own API documentation states: “If you use this low-level API directly, you're signing up for some pain.”

  • Absurd bugs and and conceptional problems: The bugs range from uncontrolled memory usage, over silent dropping of messages, to dead-locks by design, unsolved for up to 7 years. Looking closer, most of them simply cannot be solved without breaking guarantees long given by dbus-daemon(1), the reference implementation.

  • D-Bus leaks machine-id across applications which causes privacy and fingerprinting concerns.

Further details:

Added the comment but with light enhancement to left out "because it's like treating us like cattle". The reasoning here: I'd like to try for now not to get the people to misunderstand the perspective and perhaps also getting first points to make dbus itself optional. Hope you are not angry because I've changed the text at this point. And I think the meaning behind the sentence as treating the distributional aspect not as partner and only as some kind of "uncritical follower with no own voice or ideas" should be part later on. Okay so far for everyone? smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

29

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:
Emulatorman wrote:

It is my response:

First of all, HyperbolaBSD is focused to be a minimalist operating system, so automatization is not welcomed here. Second, freedom of choice should be respected because is a way to give the option for users and distributions make the better choice under their own point of views, so force D-Bus is not the way because it's like treating us like cattle.

Independent of those points cited above, there are another issues related to D-Bus:

  • Bloated and over-engineered: Its C API is very annoying to use and requires writing large amounts of boilerplate code. In fact, the pure C API is so annoying that its own API documentation states: “If you use this low-level API directly, you're signing up for some pain.”

  • Absurd bugs and and conceptional problems: The bugs range from uncontrolled memory usage, over silent dropping of messages, to dead-locks by design, unsolved for up to 7 years. Looking closer, most of them simply cannot be solved without breaking guarantees long given by dbus-daemon(1), the reference implementation.

  • D-Bus leaks machine-id across applications which causes privacy and fingerprinting concerns.

Further details:

Added the comment but with light enhancement to left out "because it's like treating us like cattle". The reasoning here: I'd like to try for now not to get the people to misunderstand the perspective and perhaps also getting first points to make dbus itself optional. Hope you are not angry because I've changed the text at this point. And I think the meaning behind the sentence as treating the distributional aspect not as partner and only as some kind of "uncritical follower with no own voice or ideas" should be part later on. Okay so far for everyone? smile

Ok, i agree you on that.

30

Re: no update ?

zapper wrote:
Emulatorman wrote:
zapper wrote:

I found something that I think might work as well as gimp:

https://github.com/bgrabitmap/lazpaint/

for my needs it works at least, I searched for gimp alternatives and found this,  tell me if it has what you guys need and whatever it doesn't have, feel free to mention.

Actually this one might also work:  https://github.com/glimpse-editor/Glimpse

But lazpaint requires way less depends thats why I mentioned that one first. smile

Glimpse forces D-Bus like GIMP, maybe you could create a feature request to make D-Bus optional for building, so we could use it as GIMP replacement.

Oh, didn't realize that... although, maybe they'd be more willing to get rid of said dependency than gimp. hmm...

What about krita?

Krita is cool, however it lacks indexed colour, image optimization and size printing options required for professional tasks. Anyway, if GIMP team reject our request, we will try make a patch to disable D-Bus for the latest version available in Debian's BullsEye.

31 (edited by throgh 2020-11-23 16:58:02)

Re: no update ?

Getting back onto that as I had that in mind, the next reaction:

I'm sorry but this report is not about the pro or cons of dbus.
As for "freedom of choice", it does not mean "having others work to implement your choice". This is Free Software here, not slavery. We already told you we welcome contributions to make GIMP work on your platform. Contributing is how you can enforce your freedom of choice, not telling us we should respect your freedom of choice (we do, as I already told in the previous message we'd happily welcome any well-done patch to make GIMP work on your OS).
So please let's stop the weird remarks on freedom of choice as we are not restricting anyone on this topic (yet it does not mean we are slaves to your desires). I hope you do understand how your previous messages didn't sound very pleasant and came out of nowhere (especially just after a message where I told you we'd welcome your contribution to make what you want happen). In GIMP, we take care of having a sane contributing environment, which I hope you understand. If so, let's stick to the topic at hand. 🙏

I don't know, that was my question. This is your OS, you tell me!

So my reaction here was:

Sorry, was not meant to attack you especially it is more a generic criticism towards D-Bus.
So I'll take the criticism thankfully and would ask: Do you have a first tip to look after for a patch? (as HyperbolaBSD won't have D-Bus integrated) Otherwise I'll look further myself for the time and come back later on. Thanks!

I've tried to be as diplomatic and friendly as possible just not to get the ticket closed. They are generic open but only with a patch. So my question is in the direction of a first starting point in general and making again clear: Hyperbola won't have D-Bus!
It's a pity that the freedom of choice is not really interesting for some projects. sad

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

32

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:

Getting back onto that as I had that in mind, the next reaction:

I'm sorry but this report is not about the pro or cons of dbus.
As for "freedom of choice", it does not mean "having others work to implement your choice". This is Free Software here, not slavery. We already told you we welcome contributions to make GIMP work on your platform. Contributing is how you can enforce your freedom of choice, not telling us we should respect your freedom of choice (we do, as I already told in the previous message we'd happily welcome any well-done patch to make GIMP work on your OS).
So please let's stop the weird remarks on freedom of choice as we are not restricting anyone on this topic (yet it does not mean we are slaves to your desires). I hope you do understand how your previous messages didn't sound very pleasant and came out of nowhere (especially just after a message where I told you we'd welcome your contribution to make what you want happen). In GIMP, we take care of having a sane contributing environment, which I hope you understand. If so, let's stick to the topic at hand. 🙏

I don't know, that was my question. This is your OS, you tell me!

So my reaction here was:

Sorry, was not meant to attack you especially it is more a generic criticism towards D-Bus.
So I'll take the criticism thankfully and would ask: Do you have a first tip to look after for a patch? (as HyperbolaBSD won't have D-Bus integrated) Otherwise I'll look further myself for the time and come back later on. Thanks!

I've tried to be as diplomatic and friendly as possible just not to get the ticket closed. They are generic open but only with a patch. So my question is in the direction of a first starting point in general and making again clear: Hyperbola won't have D-Bus!
It's a pity that the freedom of choice is not really interesting for some projects. sad

Don't worry, coadde will make a patch for it and let you know. Then you could push them that patch. If they reject, it isn't a problem because we could use it for ourselves.

33

Re: no update ?

Ah thanks and we have some clues (quote incoming):

You may look in our code what we use DBus for. That will only be a handful of files. For instance:

$ grep -rIl _dbus_ * --include=*.c
app/gui/gimpdbusservice.c
app/gui/gui-unique.c
app/unique.c
libgimpbase/gimputils.c
libgimpwidgets/gimppickbutton-kwin.c
libgimpwidgets/gimppickbutton-freedesktop.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-kwin.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-gnome-shell.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-freedesktop.c

The screenshot and color picker code are the use of D-Bus for portals (Wayland and sandboxed packages such as Flatpak/Snap). You might not have to care about having alternative implementations for these. The original non-D-Bus implementations might already just work fine.
The first few files are the ones you should look at:

- In libgimpbase/gimputils.c, there is only gimp_file_show_in_file_manager() implementation where you'd have to provide an alternative. As you can see, we have currently 3 #ifdef variants (one for Windows, one for macOS, and one with D-Bus).

- Then you should look at the *unique* files which is were you want to provide alternative code to handle the feature without DBus.

Also you need to update the autotools and meson files. Basically if something special must be done on this OS, then it has to be properly detected in a non-ambiguous way. In particular, even among the BSDs, it must only detect HyperbolaBSD as the other BSD are fine using D-Bus. We don't want to break perfectly working implementations.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

34

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:

Ah thanks and we have some clues (quote incoming):

You may look in our code what we use DBus for. That will only be a handful of files. For instance:

$ grep -rIl _dbus_ * --include=*.c
app/gui/gimpdbusservice.c
app/gui/gui-unique.c
app/unique.c
libgimpbase/gimputils.c
libgimpwidgets/gimppickbutton-kwin.c
libgimpwidgets/gimppickbutton-freedesktop.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-kwin.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-gnome-shell.c
plug-ins/screenshot/screenshot-freedesktop.c

The screenshot and color picker code are the use of D-Bus for portals (Wayland and sandboxed packages such as Flatpak/Snap). You might not have to care about having alternative implementations for these. The original non-D-Bus implementations might already just work fine.
The first few files are the ones you should look at:

- In libgimpbase/gimputils.c, there is only gimp_file_show_in_file_manager() implementation where you'd have to provide an alternative. As you can see, we have currently 3 #ifdef variants (one for Windows, one for macOS, and one with D-Bus).

- Then you should look at the *unique* files which is were you want to provide alternative code to handle the feature without DBus.

Also you need to update the autotools and meson files. Basically if something special must be done on this OS, then it has to be properly detected in a non-ambiguous way. In particular, even among the BSDs, it must only detect HyperbolaBSD as the other BSD are fine using D-Bus. We don't want to break perfectly working implementations.

Cool comment from them, it will be enough to save GIMP and make the patch for v0.4 and HyperbolaBSD. Thank you for your contribution.

35

Re: no update ?

Btw, coadde upgraded the spreadsheet with those references.

36

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:

Btw, coadde upgraded the spreadsheet with those references.

Very cool. Thanks!
Are those the only packages in question with critical dependencies?

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

37

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:
Emulatorman wrote:

Btw, coadde upgraded the spreadsheet with those references.

Very cool. Thanks!
Are those the only packages in question with critical dependencies?

That's a list based on the applications suggested by community in this thread. You can see further info such as if there's a way to remove/disable GNU/Linux-based frameworks support, etc.

38

Re: no update ?

Okay, my question was within the motivation so far having a look also onto "community" and "multilib", especially "community". Because there is my beloved "Handbrake" for now. Otherwise we could see what's coming next, perhaps also some community-ports? Well, would be interesting. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

39

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:

Okay, my question was within the motivation so far having a look also onto "community" and "multilib", especially "community". Because there is my beloved "Handbrake" for now. Otherwise we could see what's coming next, perhaps also some community-ports? Well, would be interesting. smile

For security reasons, [community] and [multilib] repos were removed in v0.4, however we will import the most important ones to [extra] repo. For that reason, we opened a thread that includes a spreadsheet with a compatibility list for v0.4 based on the applications suggested by community.

40

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:
throgh wrote:

Okay, my question was within the motivation so far having a look also onto "community" and "multilib", especially "community". Because there is my beloved "Handbrake" for now. Otherwise we could see what's coming next, perhaps also some community-ports? Well, would be interesting. smile

For security reasons, [community] and [multilib] repos were removed in v0.4, however we will import the most important ones to [extra] repo. For that reason, we opened a thread that includes a spreadsheet with a compatibility list for v0.4 based on the applications suggested by community.

Okay, thanks: Added therefore more entries to the spreadsheet.
If there are problems with some of the packages and applications: My proposal would be to help here direct by doing more research and creating the PKGBUILD-scripts when starting the test for 0.4 itself, so they can be added without problems.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

41

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:
Emulatorman wrote:
throgh wrote:

Okay, my question was within the motivation so far having a look also onto "community" and "multilib", especially "community". Because there is my beloved "Handbrake" for now. Otherwise we could see what's coming next, perhaps also some community-ports? Well, would be interesting. smile

For security reasons, [community] and [multilib] repos were removed in v0.4, however we will import the most important ones to [extra] repo. For that reason, we opened a thread that includes a spreadsheet with a compatibility list for v0.4 based on the applications suggested by community.

Okay, thanks: Added therefore more entries to the spreadsheet.
If there are problems with some of the packages and applications: My proposal would be to help here direct by doing more research and creating the PKGBUILD-scripts when starting the test for 0.4 itself, so they can be added without problems.

By the way, ImageMagick has trademark issues, so GraphicsMagick was made to solve that

In short, it says:

  • On November 27, 2003 ImageMagick Studio LLC applied to register "ImageMagick" as its trademark, and it was awarded this registered trademark (serial number 78333969) on August 30, 2005. Those who re-distribute modified versions of "ImageMagick" (e.g. patched or improved) under license as "ImageMagick" now face the risk of arbitrary trademark infringement claims by ImageMagick Studio LLC.

It's stating that..

  • GraphicsMagick never picks up new code from ImageMagick.

So it could require adaption to scripts or programs that depend on ImageMagick. Currently, g4jc is looking for patches for GraphicsMagick from Gentoo and other distros, maybe you could help him in this process too.

42

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:

By the way, ImageMagick has trademark issues, so GraphicsMagick was made to solve that

In short, it says:

  • On November 27, 2003 ImageMagick Studio LLC applied to register "ImageMagick" as its trademark, and it was awarded this registered trademark (serial number 78333969) on August 30, 2005. Those who re-distribute modified versions of "ImageMagick" (e.g. patched or improved) under license as "ImageMagick" now face the risk of arbitrary trademark infringement claims by ImageMagick Studio LLC.

It's stating that..

  • GraphicsMagick never picks up new code from ImageMagick.

So it could require adaption to scripts or programs that depend on ImageMagick. Currently, g4jc is looking for patches for GraphicsMagick from Gentoo and other distros, maybe you could help him in this process too.

Phew, thanks for the insights. I was not aware of that issue. Will search also for alternatives and looking out for patches regarding GraphicsMagick!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

43 (edited by throgh 2020-12-02 14:47:57)

Re: no update ?

Hey I'd thought the Linux-kernel won't get further updates? But now the kernel was upgraded towards version 5.4.80.
How to help with the timeline for HyperbolaBSD or is this independent to be viewed at all?

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

44

Re: no update ?

throgh wrote:

Hey I'd thought the Linux-kernel won't get further updates? But now the kernel was upgraded towards version 5.4.80.
How to help with the timeline for HyperbolaBSD or is this independent to be viewed at all?

Recently, we have made the decision to upgrade the Linux-libre kernel to the latest LTS version to avoid troubles with the new nftables and another core dependencies. It's independent of our HyperbolaBSD development, remember that HyperbolaBSD isn't limited to the kernel and we have plans to maintain a modified version of vanilla OpenBSD userspace adapted to our custom kernel and libc. Our main focus still on the HyperbolaBSD development, however it will take time to complete, so we made a modification in the development releases, you can see here for further details.

45

Re: no update ?

i wich if HyperbolaBSD could come with some icewm theme and a list of default packages just like antix

"This life is short Eternity is long who want good trees plant good seeds"

"quote" taken from sam garrens an english writer and speaker,
  Were do you think we live!

46 (edited by rachad 2020-12-02 19:18:21)

Re: no update ?

why hyperbola 0.4 is based on a new arch snapshot

"This life is short Eternity is long who want good trees plant good seeds"

"quote" taken from sam garrens an english writer and speaker,
  Were do you think we live!

47

Re: no update ?

rached wrote:

HyperForum why hyperbola 0.4 is based on a new arch snapshot

It's because HyperbolaBSD will take some years to be ready, so we need an upgraded gen of packages (based on Debian's BullsEye) because Debian's Stretch is near to expire.

48 (edited by throgh 2020-12-08 02:01:38)

Re: no update ?

Emulatorman wrote:

Recently, we have made the decision to upgrade the Linux-libre kernel to the latest LTS version to avoid troubles with the new nftables and another core dependencies. It's independent of our HyperbolaBSD development, remember that HyperbolaBSD isn't limited to the kernel and we have plans to maintain a modified version of vanilla OpenBSD userspace adapted to our custom kernel and libc. Our main focus still on the HyperbolaBSD development, however it will take time to complete, so we made a modification in the development releases, you can see here for further details.

Thank you for the update.
What exactly is meant with "snapshot from Arch"? Do you want to use the same methods as with the earlier versions? My question results therefore within the idea to have a complete independent repository with just own compiled packages and the used package-format, being homogeneous with .tar.lz. smile
Arch Linux is using Zstandard and I don't think it is helpful to clone the binary packages itself.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

49

Re: no update ?

I think that having updates have big psychological effect
Everytime i write pacman -Syyu on obarun (i am dual booting obarun with hyperbola smile) and i can see new updates coming up it's like oh wow finally won't see any difference but updated wow nice!!!
on hyperbola pacman -Syyu oh everything is up to date... uhm rite!!!!! but there is no psychological effect of being rewarded for typing pacman -Syyu!!!!
obarun gives lots of outputs very often but hyperbola gives nothing!!!

Is that a bad thing if nothing is wrong with the system?? If hyperbola is based on stable debian, why should be there frequent updates??? Why does it matter??

50

Re: no update ?

cynicfm wrote:

I think that having updates have big psychological effect
Everytime i write pacman -Syyu on obarun (i am dual booting obarun with hyperbola smile) and i can see new updates coming up it's like oh wow finally won't see any difference but updated wow nice!!!
on hyperbola pacman -Syyu oh everything is up to date... uhm rite!!!!! but there is no psychological effect of being rewarded for typing pacman -Syyu!!!!
obarun gives lots of outputs very often but hyperbola gives nothing!!!

Is that a bad thing if nothing is wrong with the system?? If hyperbola is based on stable debian, why should be there frequent updates??? Why does it matter??

I understand the question for security-fixes. But Hyperbola is also using another approach and have a smaller team itself. If there are problems with some packages in stable the proposal stays the same as always: The community could help and I think it is very good to have free software and a operating-system being so hard with getting into the principles without any kind of compromise. Hyperbola is good for hacking and learning more! smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!