1 Topic by Other_Cody

  • Other_Cody
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2024-01-17
  • Posts: 47

Topic: Does Python's trademark support freedom?

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/rust-fla … ent-175223

has a user called jxself who typed about the python trademark.

"
That seems a good point about Rust getting more suspicion than Python. As I compare https://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/

Changing the name on Python could still be a thing that someone needs to do, depending n the changes being done, like if the changes should trigger any of the "We do not want these trademarks to be used" area comes up. Like modifying the Python interpreter in such a way that it's not really the Python language anymore (as an example, if the modified interpreter is no longer compatible to run existing Python code or if the language that the modified interpreter can run can't be run by the standard Python interpreter, then I might argue that it's no longer the same language, thus triggering the "We do not want these trademarks to be used to refer to any other programming language.")

The Rust Foundation's trademark policy seems more stringent in this area than Python's, though. But I'm not aware of anyone having looked into how easy it would be to rebrand the Python software.

"

https://trisquel.info/en/forum/rust-fla … ent-175244

I, Other_Cody, also do not know about the python trademark.

"
When the trademark no longer represents a certain level of quality to the community, or no longer indicates that we are the source of the products that bear the trademark, the trademark loses its value.

Is also part of the policy, so if someone makes a change in this language or adds to it something that the Python Software Foundation does not think "represents a certain level of quality to the community" it could at least be thought as "the trademark loses its value" by the Python Software Foundation, even if the user changing or adding to the language think it is an improvement.


Commercial sales where a substantial element of what is being sold is the Python name or logo are subject to a royalty. Examples of this use include clothing items, cups, bags, stickers, or other small purchasable items that prominently feature the Python name or logo. Royalties are 10% of GROSS sales over US $1000 per year; royalties due may be donated to the Python Software Foundation or to any other nonprofit that advances the use of Python (subject to approval).

So if the Python Software Foundation thinks your software is "a substantial element of what is being sold" could mean you may be charged a royalty, I think. What will be thought as "a substantial element"? Maybe if python is used anywhere in what is being sold?


Use of the word "Python" in the names of freely distributed products like IronPython, wxPython, Python Extensions, etc. -- Allowed when referring to use with or suitability for the Python programming language. For commercial products, contact the PSF for permission.

So do "commercial products" need permission from PSF?

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to … Commercial


in ways that confuse the community as to whether the Python programming language is open source and free to use

Was a part of "We do not want these trademarks to be used:"

So it may be "open source" and you may have the freedom to use it, but does that mean changes or

The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).

Is also something you can do without breaking the trademark policy?

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw. … r-freedoms
"

2 Reply by throgh

  • throgh
  • throgh
  • Package Development and Community Coordinator
  • Offline
  • From: Planet Earth
  • Registered: 2017-12-28
  • Posts: 2,669

Re: Does Python's trademark support freedom?

Can we please immediately stop the on-going license-debate? See before I show another link: We have researched what is possible and bringing those discussions here is never intended. At most it distracts also more as we have neither the time nor further interest to debate this endless.

About that, all is written in the Rust-article: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … _trademark

Also: Please understand, Hyperbola is very small and we have neither the time not the resources to debate like perhaps Trisquel and some users do. We have no interests doing that here as this keeps us busy and distracted from our original intention.

Okay, adding: Yes, when the license has severe issues like Rusts? Absolutely and we need also help with research on license-issues. Like you stated for OpenTTD. wink So interest sure, but not those long discussions with an open ending. I know that debate very well now for days as I read there daily and try to get information sorted so we can look on failures ... or optimize our information in the wiki. Because, well? You see it perhaps: No one is speaking with us direct. Only those threads and therefore I personal but also the others are not that amused all-time. wink That's beside not your fault!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

3 Reply by Other_Cody

  • Other_Cody
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2024-01-17
  • Posts: 47

Re: Does Python's trademark support freedom?

throgh wrote:

Can we please immediately stop the on-going license-debate? See before I show another link: We have researched what is possible and bringing those discussions here is never intended. At most it distracts also more as we have neither the time nor further interest to debate this endless.

About that, all is written in the Rust-article: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … _trademark

Also: Please understand, Hyperbola is very small and we have neither the time not the resources to debate like perhaps Trisquel and some users do. We have no interests doing that here as this keeps us busy and distracted from our original intention.

Okay, adding: Yes, when the license has severe issues like Rusts? Absolutely and we need also help with research on license-issues. Like you stated for OpenTTD. wink So interest sure, but not those long discussions with an open ending. I know that debate very well now for days as I read there daily and try to get information sorted so we can look on failures ... or optimize our information in the wiki. Because, well? You see it perhaps: No one is speaking with us direct. Only those threads and therefore I personal but also the others are not that amused all-time. wink That's beside not your fault!

Thank you for this information.

I may have saw an older post that is saved at

https://web.archive.org/web/20240110164 … _trademark

instead of the newer one

saved at

https://web.archive.org/web/20240117161 … _trademark

So I may have forgot about the

Uses that Never Require Approval

All trademarks are subject to "nominative use rules" that allow use of the trademark to name the trademarked entity in a way that is minimal and does not imply a sponsorship relationship with the trademark holder.

As such, stating accurately that software is written in the Python programming language, that it is compatible with the Python programming language, or that it contains the Python programming language, is always allowed. In those cases, you may use the word "Python" or the unaltered logos to indicate this, without our prior approval. This is true both for non-commercial and commercial uses.

This clause overrides other clauses of this policy. However, if you have any doubts about your intended use of the trademarks, please contact the PSF Trademarks Committee.

And seeing "This clause overrides other clauses of this policy." the Python trademark policy may only be there to prevent against fraud.

I was not trying to cause a problematic debate, I just did not understand Python's trademark policy that well.

I also think the policy of Hyperbola to not have the "Rust" things, and some other things that are listed to not be included, may be a nice idea.

4 Reply by throgh

  • throgh
  • throgh
  • Package Development and Community Coordinator
  • Offline
  • From: Planet Earth
  • Registered: 2017-12-28
  • Posts: 2,669

Re: Does Python's trademark support freedom?

No, that's allright asking and also needed. The only thing which is surely not so good is: People debate also your contributions elsewhere and there seems to be always this "BUT" following some claims like:

FSF saying opposite
It could be FUD

Other arguments also. But in general this only lead to the point where people getting more insecure for sure. The FSF has not solved those issues because the nice riddle aside: They stopped listing nmap for minor reasoning and kept Rust nevertheless.

Comparing:

https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Talk:Nmap
https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Rust

Yes, I know what comes next when others see this. Nevertheless: There are more problematic software-projects like vdrift for example. We contacted the FSF with stating those. But not received a final answer until now.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!