1

Topic: Guix package manager

Guys, I wonder why doesn't Hyperbola add guix to existing packages. Hyperbola lacks a lot of very important packages.

If as written here by these guys

https://guix.gnu.org/#guix-in-other-distros

guix doesn't interfere with other package managers, one can take advantage of all these built packages. It can solve hyperbola's problems.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

2

Re: Guix package manager

Where are the problems of Hyperbola? Could you specify these a bit more? Yes, Guix has very interesting features. But also within the repositories there are problematic packages like Rust, Mono and OpenJDK. Those were identified as problematic regarding licensing for example. So how to "solve problems" being not declared further here and creating even new ones regarding freedom for example?

Not meant as attacking any position, but in regards it should be the personal decision of every individual what to install and I think Hyperbola does a very good job about this. Yes, some packages are older, but this can also be solved: Either building own packages or using software like GUIX, like here.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

3

Re: Guix package manager

Reasonably latest packages are the problems of hyperbola. You have managed to fill 5 pages in the last 6 months. And I've seen many more posts where people have said that why are these packages so old.

I think we are going towards OpenBSD vs FreeBSD debate of usability vs security.

You should add a line somewhere in documentation that "in case you cannot work with our packages, use guix although we don't recommend it". I learnt about it now. I would've used hyperbola if I had heard it before.

So you can either add something like guix, make some changes to guix where you disallow openJDK, RUST, Mono and similar packages, or update your ancient packages. According to Hyperbola's philosophy I think the only 2 options are 2 and 3, of which 2 is easier, 3 is difficult.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

4 (edited by throgh 2020-06-30 19:55:23)

Re: Guix package manager

Well, as you've said: There is the discussion about usability vs. security. Packages are in many ways not the newest one but having two different package-management systems is also quite not the best idea. So distributing GUIX is a decision from the user-perspective and it is a good one when fitting the needs. But it can also be quite not the best one for everyone else. As I'm also a user here: Yes, I've looked into this and want to try GUIX out as testing scenario. But there are also quite some problems, not only the ones I've mentioned about licensing and the on-going pragmatism against any kind of ideal in regards of "free, libre soft- and hardware".

So my question was just taken from the user-perspective. Otherwise around we should wait what the development and the team behind are saying onwards this proposal itself. There is also the question for creating OpenRC-services and much more. Modifying GUIX to disallow some packages is even more complicated as blacklisting always is and you have to be always onto the listing of newer added packages for Rust, Java / OpenJDK and Mono. So even more work to do!

Besides there is always the possibility to propose own and newer packages on LibreGit or here in the forums. So if you want we can start here and create an own package for installation of GUIX, a PKGBUILD either to compile that from source or distribute a binary version. Hyperbola is free software and we can "hack" this software, modify it for our needs and offer our changes for others. This is what I've learned and the PKGBUILD-format as pacman or in the future hyperman is such a good possibility to build and share own modifications. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

5

Re: Guix package manager

How much future are we talking about for hyperman? I would be interested to do something long term. I'll try to build python-cryptography and guix once I install hyperbola on a usb. Don't rely on me though.

I again learnt something new (libregit) from here. Migrated from github to libregit completely.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

6

Re: Guix package manager

A good question: Don't know so far as only the developers can say more about the future. But as far as we know hyperman could be used in the future for HyperbolaBSD as it is built onto that base. Perhaps we can use it the same as pacman today but I'm not really sure about if HyperbolaBSD will use some kind of system similar to "ports" of OpenBSD. Would be definitely interesting building packages the same way as for now! smile

Regarding the package for GUIX: This is and was of course an invitation for everybody interested. I'm definitely one person willing to look into this as I find the base absolutely interesting - have used GuixSD some time ago.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

7

Re: Guix package manager

Okay, I have hyperbola on my usb now. How to contact you? How to proceed? Mail me on my email id.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

8

Re: Guix package manager

Done! smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9

Re: Guix package manager

I didn't get anything

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

10

Re: Guix package manager

Don't know how this works here in the forum as I've used just the link "Email" and the system showed me that the message was sent. Well: Other way also possible to write down the notes here as it could be also of interest for others.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

11

Re: Guix package manager

That would be a bit strange. Use the website link below my profile. Mail me on the mail mentioned there.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

12

Re: Guix package manager

Will try otherwise but only within a few days (can't name more closely as there is much to do within the next time). sad
For now I'll leave some short notes and links for the first startup:

PKGBUILD on the AUR

https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/ … ILD?h=guix

Whole package-files on the AUR

https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/?h=guix

initd-script from Gentoo-overlays

https://data.gpo.zugaina.org/nix-guix/s … emon.initd

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

13

Re: Guix package manager

Done, read them. Also, there's

https://git.parabola.nu/abslibre.git/tree/pcr/guix

under parabola which will be much closer to hyperbola in my view. So, how will the process go. Download source, write pkgbuild, make it, and reiterate? Give me the whole process.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

14

Re: Guix package manager

Thanks!
In short: Yes. But there is more: Looking at the dependencies needs also some more buildout.

makedepends=(
  'bash-completion'
  'fish'
  'guile-json'
  'guile-ssh>=0.10.2'
  'help2man')
depends=(
  'guile>=2.0.9'
  'guile-git-lib'
  'guile-sqlite3'
  'sqlite>=3.6.19'
  'bzip2'
  'gnutls'
  'libgcrypt'
  'zlib')

So all packages should be installed and available. Therefore also corresponding PKGBUILD-files for creation. After the basic dependencies are available, there is GUIX in general. So I would first try to build it with "systemd" activated. Afterwards we can use the initd-configuration coming from Gentoo to recreate the package for Hyperbola.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

15

Re: Guix package manager

Except guile-git which requires scheme-bytestructures, everything else is installed at my system. Why would you do it with systemd? Hyperbola uses OpenRC. It would just be a waste of energy. We would have to write these precise steps that we use to build in PKGBUILD format right?

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

16

Re: Guix package manager

The usage of "systemd" was only meant for the first test to compile the package, not for the final steps. When you have the package right away functional on this level we can provide the initd-script more easily. But, yes: It can also be done directly or without any further execution for any init-system right away, just for testing purpose of compilation and running the build therefore manually.

To use PKGBUILD all steps have to fit in the end, but as mentioned: This packaging-system is handled very good and you can debug problems without further problems. Of course, precise steps needed when being finalized as this should be a running daemon on the system. I think GUIX is also mentioning nscd to be running? So this should be also noted (Link).

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

17

Re: Guix package manager

I face a very strange thing. I've installed hyperbola on a usb. I use plasma, xenocara, sddm. When I shut it down, my bootable partition isn't detected next time. I might have to use QEMU. Any help as to how to create an environment of hyperbola with QEMU? I use parabola currently.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

18

Re: Guix package manager

sagaracharya wrote:

I face a very strange thing. I've installed hyperbola on a usb. I use plasma, xenocara, sddm. When I shut it down, my bootable partition isn't detected next time. I might have to use QEMU. Any help as to how to create an environment of hyperbola with QEMU? I use parabola currently.

I use lxdm, so I don't have an answer at the moment regarding why sddm makes errors. hmm

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

19

Re: Guix package manager

I have been a bit busy. Bill Auger at parabola tells me that in LTS OSes, newer packages cannot be supported. Can you ask the core developers of hyperbola whether guix will be a useful addition to hyperbola? If guix installs newer packages and they're not compatible with hyperbola, then it would be of no use.

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

20

Re: Guix package manager

From what I have read Guix has no further dependencies from the installed operating-system and can run instead just with some basic packages. Meaning: Installing applications like Jami would be no further problem. Nevertheless the repositories of Guix have enough questionable packages as mentioned that have questionable licensing being not fully compliant with the principles of Hyperbola, some even are itself a security risk like Ungoogled Chromium as this project can never be free itself.

So besides getting this to run Guix has own package-repositories with questionable content. That's the reasoning to discuss from my point of view besides having another managing platform for packages besides pacman. But everyone is free to hack and modify the system for own needs and to share the knowledge for the modifications. The core team is reading here the forums as we do, so we can wait for an answer or you check out for the IRC as proposal.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

21

Re: Guix package manager

throgh wrote:

From what I have read Guix has no further dependencies from the installed operating-system and can run instead just with some basic packages. Meaning: Installing applications like Jami would be no further problem. Nevertheless the repositories of Guix have enough questionable packages as mentioned that have questionable licensing being not fully compliant with the principles of Hyperbola, some even are itself a security risk like Ungoogled Chromium as this project can never be free itself.

So besides getting this to run Guix has own package-repositories with questionable content. That's the reasoning to discuss from my point of view besides having another managing platform for packages besides pacman. But everyone is free to hack and modify the system for own needs and to share the knowledge for the modifications. The core team is reading here the forums as we do, so we can wait for an answer or you check out for the IRC as proposal.

Yeah, I agree with you on that, Guix does have questionable content and they don't seem to care about actual libre software... hmm

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

22

Re: Guix package manager

Ok, then hyperbola needs guix.

In case of strange packages, the solution is so simple. You make something like hyperguix. You take instructions and if they point to a nonfree package, you throw an error. And if the package is available, you go ahead and pass that request to guix server. It's trivial guys. It's a piece of cake. You give a command like

 hguix install __ 
Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

23 (edited by throgh 2020-07-20 10:44:04)

Re: Guix package manager

First things first: When Guix is possible to build from source on Hyperbola, there can be a PKGBUILD (including needed files) posted here for example. Creating another fork is way far more work as the naming-scheme must be fitting the packages within the repositories of Guix itself. So Ungoogled Chromium can be recognized and besides that even IceCat is for now "not free" as it is based onto Rust and the project Hyperbola rejects Rust as it has enough freedom flaws.

This is way more work incoming than creating something like Hyperguix. Creating an own package as of interest making it work, offering here for others? Yes. Needing Guix here at this distribution? Well, I have doubts about that because Hyperbola is changing towards BSD-compliant not being compliant towards Linux (without GNU) and Guix has enough freedom flaws - mentioned already here. Just because the "need for being on newer packages" I'd like to say just "No, Hyperbola doesn't need Guix then!". There are possibilities to create newer versions of packages and software already.

It is a user decision: If the user decides to run Guix? Fine then. But the distribution itself doesn't need more than one method to distribute software. There is pacman and with this reasoning back in mind flatpak was removed already: Because there are no free repositories existing for now and any repository having mixed free and proprietary licensing is just more of the known paradigm. Being strict with principles meaning being for freedom, privacy and security. Guix is mixing this and creating a method to "filter" packages is more work than just letting this package-manager out of scope. No, Hyperbola doesn't need Guix itself. If users need it, okay ... creating a package and offering here for everyone to tryout. We have the package your-freedom and creating another package for Guix including some white- and blacklist fitting is way too much. Just my point of view as user of the distribution.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

24

Re: Guix package manager

I get it. So with something like hyperguix, hyperbola will have to keep updating the blacklist as per the uploads of packages on guix page. If guix would facilitate nonfree software, then even having a pkgbuild for guix will assist users on hyperbola to install it. One would want to make it difficult for users to install nonfree software as it is now. BTW, what is white hole? I'm unable to enter it from outside! ;D

Today, the forces which make richer and poor poorer have their roots in computer security. Never has it been more important to work towards abolishing the power of the powerful.

Let's use hyperbola or other libre OSes and strive towards stateless hardware (Rutkowska 2015). Let's use GNU/Linux phones and shun Android. Let's make our data available to everyone or else absolutely no one.

25 (edited by throgh 2020-07-21 19:52:22)

Re: Guix package manager

I don't think complicated, just the users choice at all. Everyone is free to install software afterwards and modify the system. Guix itself won't distribute complete proprietary packages, but their repositories don't fit very well with the strict principles Hyperbola is following at all. As example: You can of course build OpenMW to support the proprietary contents, building your own package as the engine is capable to do so with the correct compilation-flags. That's the users decision, so I think it is a cool way to share PKGBUILD-scripts here to show what is possible and that's also a wonderful way to modify the system with supporting Guix. But in the end I don't know of course what is coming up when HyperbolaBSD is right in charge as there is a concrete difference:

- building a distribution consisting of packages and kernel for a Unix-like system (GNU/Linux)
- building a complete operating-system consisting of a userland and compatible applications within (BSD)

Running Guix on BSD is not possible because of the differences and their packaging-scripts are based on GNU/Linux for now, perhaps some more focus on GNU/Hurd someday? Mentioning GNU/Linux and BSD has the reasoning to be more clear about the goals both communities have. They have many things in common, but also share not everything and in some points cannot be compared in any way. So perhaps Guix could get to run onto BSD, but the repositories doesn't include applications being runnable on it this should be also kept in mind as GNU/Linux is not longer supported when HyperbolaBSD is out.
Regarding White Hole:

White Hole version is adapted to the Hyperbola devs and security team who are doing new revisions of our packages and making testing before release it to Milky Way for a better stability.

(source)

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!