Topic: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

Hello community,

after reading a thread at the Trisquel-forum where a discussion about systemd (https://trisquel.info/en/forum/fsf-adds … tributions) took place and also a link to the Hyperbola-site is used, I thought about creating this topic asking if it would be helpful changing or better refreshing the information about INIT-freedom. Please don't get me wrong, I like Hyperbola having no systemd included, but postings in the Trisquel-discussion stated that sources where old and some problems coming up only from misunderstandings and exotic configurations. Perhaps a more generic approach would be better? systemd tends to be more than a INIT-system and that is too much.

The major problem is that this discussion tends to be very ideological in common. No, that's not bad, but the discussion in the Trisquel-forum is a really good demonstration about the generic approach of such a discussion. In the end it's enough from my point of view to state that systemd is just too much for an INIT-system, more incompatible with the freedom of choice implementing another INIT-system at will of the concurrent user and therefore not used by Hyperbola. What do you think?

== Moderation Note ==
This topic moved | General >> Philosophy

2 (edited by zapper 2018-01-01 04:49:19)

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

I would agree, having no systemd is good, I don't know if it will make much difference to update the sources, but yeah... That thread brings back memories. Not good ones. I wish it wasn't like talking to a staunch crazy person. But yeah, systemd supporters are so full of themselves... alas.

In essence we should update our reasons when possible, but they will most likely always disregard the truth.

So don't worry about it too much. That's usually a good thought process.

Although it is good to be updating it when possible just for those who are not sure who or what to trust.

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

3 (edited by throgh 2018-01-01 10:52:04)

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

Thanks for the feedback: systemd is just too much, even though it is free software. But in this discussion there are some good points and I think it is not good when the community behind free, libre soft- / hardware has such differences. So it would be great when Hyperbola just follows the "freedom of choice": Using OpenRC is such a decision making it possible to have more distributions without the "unified approach" systemd wants for the Linux-world, the so-called pointless differences. Stanardization is generally a good one, but not when there is no further "freedom of choice" and Debian-like distributions have these problems. When trying to remove systemd, speaking about Debian, URUK, Trisquel and Ubuntu, everything else made dependable is also removed and the complete system is made useless afterwards. And this is much work installing the missing packages, removed in that automated process first. Arch and its derivates is therefore more comfortable: Okay, you can destroy your configuration also, but it is possible to remove systemd and install a complete new INIT-system. And it is great having with Hyperbola a real libre distribution following this path!

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

Not all free software is good or reliable.

Systemd and a heap of bugs and the hyperbola developers have made the right choice, being that the security and privacy of its users and priority.

It does not matter if systemd is free. In fact he is a cancer

=-= Viva a Hyperbola ! Um chute na bunda do Systemd! =-=

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

pekman wrote:

Not all free software is good or reliable.

Systemd and a heap of bugs and the hyperbola developers have made the right choice, being that the security and privacy of its users and priority.

It does not matter if systemd is free. In fact he is a cancer

Yes, I realize this now, I just find it fascinating that someone actually made free software that actually sucks almost as bad as non-free software.

This might not surprise other people, but for me... yeah... it just is bewildering...

But yeah, poettering is a bad developer. he really needs to quit while he's behind so to speak.

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

6 (edited by throgh 2018-01-02 23:06:53)

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

pekman wrote:

Not all free software is good or reliable.

Systemd and a heap of bugs and the hyperbola developers have made the right choice, being that the security and privacy of its users and priority.

It does not matter if systemd is free. In fact he is a cancer

For sure it is a very invasive approach - meaning systemd. But I just want to point out that Hyperbola is a really good way using another one for INIT-freedom. As you can see in the other discussion there are always tryouts to make the used arguments more invalid. There is no further need for reasoning against or for systemd. It would be better just noting that Hyperbola just want another way!

Therefore my question and of course this is part to be discussed furthermore.
I don't know Lennart Poettering to have any further opinion about him or his style for development in deep. And I don't want to build up my view about him based on systemd. The only fact that matters for me is that this component is way too much and its adaption causes many false dependencies under the so-called standardization.

EDIT: Thanks for moving the topic to the right place, moderation!

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

"For sure it is a very invasive approach - meaning systemd. But I just want to point out that Hyperbola is a really good way using another one for INIT-freedom. As you can see in the other discussion there are always tryouts to make the used arguments more invalid. There is no further need for reasoning against or for systemd. It would be better just noting that Hyperbola just want another way!"

That is a good thought process. People who support systemd are impossible to reason with for the most part.

"Therefore my question and of course this is part to be discussed furthermore.
I don't know Lennart Poettering to have any further opinion about him or his style for development in deep. And I don't want to build up my view about him based on systemd. The only fact that matters for me is that this component is way too much and its adaption causes many false dependencies under the so-called standardization."

I would say, that Lennart must be some type of hostile developer given his way of dealing with people who don't like what he is doing/people complain about issues which actually matter that he doesn't care about.

But yeah, systemd is way, way, too much and its adaption is completely unneeded and uncalled for. Especially because people added it as a dependency to everything.

"EDIT: Thanks for moving the topic to the right place, moderation!"

Agreed this is a better area for this thread.

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

Although I consciously avoided discussing systemd on the Trisquel boards and social media, my experience was essentially identical to zapper's. They just aren't listening. As an intermediate user and autodidact, being told to "trust the experts and stop being stubborn" pretty much ruined any positive memories I might have of that community.

I don't know that they would listen to a refreshed argument or if continuing to try to reason with then would do any good at all. I very much appreciate the Hyperbola social contract including "no discrimination on the basis of social class" and also (perceived) "intelligence". I think knowing that I am safe from that here pretty much takes care of any controversial opinions or conspiracy theories about Poettering on my own end.

"I would prefer not to" is about the only thing productive I have to say to systemd fanbois; the rest of the anger and frustration probably belongs in a paper notebook that can be burned or an encrypted text file. My time online and on earth is better spent expanding my own horizons.

9 (edited by zapper 2018-03-20 20:40:41)

Re: Refresh for the argumentation for INIT-freedom?

noordinaryspider wrote:

Although I consciously avoided discussing systemd on the Trisquel boards and social media, my experience was essentially identical to zapper's. They just aren't listening. As an intermediate user and autodidact, being told to "trust the experts and stop being stubborn" pretty much ruined any positive memories I might have of that community.

I don't know that they would listen to a refreshed argument or if continuing to try to reason with then would do any good at all. I very much appreciate the Hyperbola social contract including "no discrimination on the basis of social class" and also (perceived) "intelligence". I think knowing that I am safe from that here pretty much takes care of any controversial opinions or conspiracy theories about Poettering on my own end.

"I would prefer not to" is about the only thing productive I have to say to systemd fanbois; the rest of the anger and frustration probably belongs in a paper notebook that can be burned or an encrypted text file. My time online and on earth is better spent expanding my own horizons.

Yep, they won't listen. I really think its all about propaganda.  It has no absolutely nothing to do with FUD like they think.

My time on earth is also better spent elsewhere. systemd is more than just a crappy idea, it has a lot of blind fans and blind ideas.

I jokingly called it the donald trump of linux, whether or not anyone agrees here... my point was that it is, unstable, untrustworthy and has no backwards compatibility.

edit, Although I should probably have said of gnu/linux. but meh, you get the point.

Hyperbola:

The Stable Secure Libre Arch!