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Topic: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Bumped into this thread - https://trisquel.info/en/forum/rust-has … ark-policy .

How does this change affect the legit evaluation - https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … _trademark - of RUST?
Does the wiki need an update?
Or is the Rust problem even solved now, opening the door to RUST usage without wrecking freedom?
What about Cargo?
Does the change give reason to keep or change hyperbolas stance towards RUST?
If the change makes a change of hyperbola's policy reasonable, how would that change hyperbola project development?

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Nothing is solved, even with the update you cannot modify Rust and remove parts as we need to do it. So answering your questions:

How does this change affect the legit evaluation of Rust?
No change within as Rust stays on being not compatible with strict freedom and principle oriented onto.

Does the wiki need an update?
No as there is the no real change.

Or is the Rust problem even solved now, opening the door to RUST usage without wrecking freedom?
See above.

What about Cargo?
That is one further issue as we cannot remove it and would need again a more free and permissive licensed fork to do that. When something has a guideline for logo and more policies for media, we should stay for sure critical. When we remove Cargo and modify Rust as package at the points needed we would nevertheless ask again for "permission" and so the points mentioned stay again: Rust is NOT free software. It is just in some way made compatible for a free distribution without modifications. The modified guidelines give more safety for the pragmatic approach. But Hyperbola is not oriented onto pragmatism. Other systems can do as they want for sure.

Does the change give reason to keep or change hyperbolas stance towards RUST?
We don't have any further interest to include Rust as it is not only that point. You need even more parts to compile applications. So the toolchain is right away very complex and we don't have also interest into bloated and complex tools.

If the change makes a change of hyperbola's policy reasonable, how would that change hyperbola project development?
See above: We don't and won't integrate Rust or tools based onto that at any point in the future. We also have no interest into Rust in a whole. It's toolchain is bloated right from the roots, not only the compiler is needed for many applications and we have not talked about non-free libraries being nevertheless needed at a point to be downloaded for building - that's the reasoning we have only ONE package-management and nothing more like pip for Python or others.

Also Rust is included with "corporate interests", so we have another point to reject its integration. Nothing is changed and nothing will therefore be changed for Hyperbola. We go for free and libre soft- / hardware. Besides that hardware is another point: Software is made by people for people, with the community in mind and to share free culture and information. Not about corporate interests and there is for sure no point we will go for that point. And to underline comparisons like LibreOffice would have comparable guidelines (mentioned within the link from the Trisquel-forums): We cannot compare a single application with a complete programming-language and its toolchain behind.

A personal note
I find it interesting that people discuss ABOUT Hyperbola instead talking here WITH us. I can only renew the invitation being made as those discussions will never lead to a better understanding otherwise. Nobody is enforced to follow our perspectives here, we just ask for pure friendly tolerance, nothing more and nothing less. smile But that's a good example why so-called modern communication has a malfunction: People talk more about each other instead with each other. Cannot change that, but as said: Would be cool to do it other way. And also to note: It would be good if we end discussions about Rust for the time being now. All was and is said now. When there is another clue and part of the team have found a way, well there is a chance for discussing again. But for now? Nothing in reach. And if the people elsewhere want to discuss, the invitation stands for a long time.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Well,  if Rust and Cargo could both be used in libre form,  debloating it, would actually be possible.  At that point, it might actually have a use, but of course, it would be better to wait until cargo is fixed and of course, a huge debloating effort being completed, by some entity and then havre it checked to see if it is really as secure as people think.

On the last point, I would guess, there is some form of security by isolation like logic  being used for its design. If this is the case,  its not clear what will happen afterwards.

QubesOS has strategy, but it is possible this method will weaken greatly over time.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Hyperbola is a small system with a small team: So for sure we have to wait. And personal: Looking into gcc-rust as it is comparable to the same problems back. The GO-language and its official release with alone technical issues and now the official Rust with its for sure different base of licensing-problems, but nevertheless also bloated toolchain. When we do that we would for sure have further issues. So better to leave those grounds and focus onto our roadmap.

Besides: Rust is and stays corporate open-source, NOT free and libre software with free, libre and permissive licensing.
We would make a foul compromise when integrating that.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

5 (edited by ConstantMotion 2022-08-28 19:40:08)

Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Thank you very much for the clear, comprehensive and substantial feedback.

Everything crucial is said, carried together in 1 place, reflecting recent developments.
That's why I agree on ending RUST discussion, I see no meaningful room left for continuing—but I do see room for continuing this:

throgh wrote:

So better to leave those grounds and focus onto our roadmap.

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

Absolutely! Let's hope the law-problems can be sorted out and there is a gcc-rust will get in the making. Surely that is a chance in the future without having those problems and including lightweight tools. That would be a fine compromise in the clear lookout. But until: HyperbolaBSD will be our goal and therefore beyond also. big_smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

throgh wrote:

Hyperbola is a small system with a small team: So for sure we have to wait. And personal: Looking into gcc-rust as it is comparable to the same problems back. The GO-language and its official release with alone technical issues and now the official Rust with its for sure different base of licensing-problems, but nevertheless also bloated toolchain. When we do that we would for sure have further issues. So better to leave those grounds and focus onto our roadmap.

Besides: Rust is and stays corporate open-source, NOT free and libre software with free, libre and permissive licensing.
We would make a foul compromise when integrating that.

To be honest, if it could be debloated, immensely and the trademark licensing becomes reasonable, which I know are all big ifs for sure.

Then there is really no reason why there should be an issue in adding it, provided it isn't even an 1/8th as crappy as java security wise.

Which, sounds unlikely.

But I understand your thought process a bit more now.

If not enough of this happens, then yes:

JUST! DON'T!

Although it might be better to fix those rust issues by having one of your team members learn rust, to know how to fix this problem in GCC.

Sounds like a pain in the ass right?

I imagine it is much more so x10 than I probably think.

Which sounds already like a nightmare.

Anywho, peace Hyperbola Team, will try to fix my computer situation tomorrow.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: Rust has updated its trademark policy

We could for sure do those discussions for multiple times - please don't. Nevertheless: It stays the same. Rust is NOT free software!
There is no need for us to bother with more and also to bother with Rust, as I have underlined that we have a complete other focus. The call is just that: If someone within the community has interest and time, feel free. For the time being this thread is answered and I will close it. smile

We have no time left to get into that parts as we do the best possible to keep Hyperbola updated and the development going for HyperbolaBSD. For everything else there is just no room and:

zapper wrote:

(...)
Then there is really no reason why there should be an issue in adding it, provided it isn't even an 1/8th as crappy as java security wise.
(...)

We won't break with our generic ruleset not adding bloated software. We have enough big packages with many dependencies and as being underlined: Rust alone is not sufficient as we should be clear: This goes clearly into the direction of the webbrowser. Just to state again: Before we add bloated dependencies just to have a more modern browsing possibility, it would be wise to rethink the whole complex "internet". No need, no time, no interest and not our main focus. Java per definition is also not completely insecure: It is a decision about dependencies and the more of them, the more attack vectors are there. It is just not possible to modify Java or Rust so they can fit into the needs of free and libre perspectives - trademarks and licensing. Yes, not the finest, but just to be clear onto. Besides also to note: Free and libre software is done by the community for the community, for technical emancipation. Java and named Rust are the opposite: Corporate open-source. Yes, it is possible to include whatever while the license seems free, but there are enough toxic presents in form of software-packages nobody should ever want within a free and libre system. We have not done so much work with removing Java, Mono and others, just to get newer ones back on board again and having that in the future again. We respect others doing it other way, but we keep doing that our way. There are enough possibilities to modify Hyperbola and we don't need to add more languages and packages based onto them just because it opens the door for whatever: The final answer for the moment as long as nothing is changed onto the mentioned parts and the inclusion of Rust into some future version of gcc will take years for sure. Nothing in sight therefore!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!