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Topic: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

From the site and the wiki, Hyperbola seems to be less of an operating system than an ideology or a way of life. I admit I was somewhat surprised by this, since it was recommended to me for its security, privacy and anonymity, not for its libre ideology, which seems to be rather more front and center. But I'm happy to take that in my stride, even if it's laid on somewhat thicker than I'm used to.

Something that I'm more wary of is the hyperbola social contract, an edict that Hyperbola likewise set an enormous, in my opinion inordinate, amount of store by. It's unquestionable status as the be-all and end-all strikes me as going rather against the spirit of the libre ideology itself. But since I don't hold that ideology in quite the same regard as Hyperbola seems to, I'm content to let most of that slide as well.

Except for the tenth of the eleven commandments:

Hyperbola and anti-discrimination: All of Hyperbola community are to respect the ethics of freedom and free software and are demanded to show the deepest respect among themselves. Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, ideology, ideas, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Hyperbola encourages freedom of speech. However, do not curse or use offensive language while debating within the Hyperbola community. Do not under any circumstances attack, bully, stalk, or harass any individual (the personal turn) or a certain group. Play the ball, not the man. Any disregard of any of these points will lead to moderation by The Support Staff, including, but not limited to, temporary ban of the person(s) in question. Severe and repeat instances may lead to permanent ban if deemed necessary by The Founders.

A lot of this seems sensible enough, or at least no more silly than the other commandments, but there are a few contradictions.

Firstly, "Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on [...] ideology, ideas". What about when ideologies or ideas (such as communism, fascism, nazism and other forms of socialism) are fundamentally incompatible with the libre ideology, are irreconcilable with the philosophy of free knowledge, preclude respect for the ethics of freedom and free software, and violate the sanctity and sovereignty of the individual?
This clause protects those who violate the social contract, and worse, prevents anyone (including the founders and support staff) from applying the contract in its entirety. It's a catch 22 that leaves everyone (in particular the founders and support staff) with no way out but to hypocritically violate some part of the contract and thereby the contract as a whole.

Secondly, "Any disregard of any of these points will lead to moderation by The Support Staff, including, but not limited to, temporary ban of the person(s) in question. Severe and repeat instances may lead to permanent ban if deemed necessary by The Founders." This too is a contradiction in light of the first.
Because of the previous clause, there can be no moderation by the support staff without their disregard for any of these points. The founders cannot issue permanent bans without violating the social contract. Again, this forces a catch 22 where the only out is hypocrisy: placing the support staff and the founders above the law, by excepting them from the requirement to follow the social contract in its entirety.
And that is an extremely slippery slope with fascism yawning at its base. Not the libre ideology, not the philosophy of free knowledge, not the ethics of freedom and free software, but fascism.

2 Reply by throgh

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

Thanks for the report of that and besides this sounds like common answer: Yes, taking it seriously. Especially when it comes to fascism and nazism. Nevertheless: No one is free from a ideological background, otherwise free software and culture would never get into existance. Also stating that someone is not following some ideology is per definition an ideology.

So getting on with your criticism, I would like to get this a bit further and go for possible alternatives to underline it more clear what we are onto. A first proposal to redefine that part:

(...)

Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Hyperbola encourages freedom of speech always in combination with responsibility: Never think both are not combined as our community is build on top of integral, democratic ideas and ideologies. Ideologies and perspectives with roots in hatred, harassment and exclusion of groups or individuals based on before mentioned grounds are not welcome here. However, do not curse or use offensive language while debating within the Hyperbola community.

(...)

I'd like to go away from wordings like "tolerance" as there should be no need to "tolerate democracy": This is what Hyperbola is about. Without democratic basics and ideas free culture is going in the opposite direction. Tolerance is nevertheless the basic for everything else, but one point: Tolerating the intolerance itself is not possible as this leads to destruction of democratic principles!

I invite you for sure to rethink the critical points you see together, so we can make it more clear. And before I forget that point: Welcome here! smile

Besides that on top towards the point "way of life": Well, it is about free and libre soft- / hardware also in general. So for sure there are clear and strict principles. Otherwise we would head in a different direction as Hyperbola is:

  • not another distribution free from systemd (even though it is entitled that way by others)

  • not another distribution only with GNU/Linux-libre for all times

  • a project and system with strict values shared

  • a vision for an operating-system going for clear BSD-ways in combination with more GNU-parts

  • a possible idea for technical emancipation

  • a system with focus on stability and security

So I get your point: Who is watching the ones in control? As our community is for now very small, this seems being far away. It is for sure not. My proposal above is only a first tryout therefore.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

3 Reply by zapper

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

throgh wrote:

Thanks for the report of that and besides this sounds like common answer: Yes, taking it seriously. Especially when it comes to fascism and nazism. Nevertheless: No one is free from a ideological background, otherwise free software and culture would never get into existance. Also stating that someone is not following some ideology is per definition an ideology.

So getting on with your criticism, I would like to get this a bit further and go for possible alternatives to underline it more clear what we are onto. A first proposal to redefine that part:

(...)

Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Hyperbola encourages freedom of speech always in combination with responsibility: Never think both are not combined as our community is build on top of integral, democratic ideas and ideologies. Ideologies and perspectives with roots in hatred, harassment and exclusion of groups or individuals based on before mentioned grounds are not welcome here. However, do not curse or use offensive language while debating within the Hyperbola community.

(...)

I'd like to go away from wordings like "tolerance" as there should be no need to "tolerate democracy": This is what Hyperbola is about. Without democratic basics and ideas free culture is going in the opposite direction. Tolerance is nevertheless the basic for everything else, but one point: Tolerating the intolerance itself is not possible as this leads to destruction of democratic principles!

I invite you for sure to rethink the critical points you see together, so we can make it more clear. And before I forget that point: Welcome here! smile

Besides that on top towards the point "way of life": Well, it is about free and libre soft- / hardware also in general. So for sure there are clear and strict principles. Otherwise we would head in a different direction as Hyperbola is:

  • not another distribution free from systemd (even though it is entitled that way by others)

  • not another distribution only with GNU/Linux-libre for all times

  • a project and system with strict values shared

  • a vision for an operating-system going for clear BSD-ways in combination with more GNU-parts

  • a possible idea for technical emancipation

  • a system with focus on stability and security

So I get your point: Who is watching the ones in control? As our community is for now very small, this seems being far away. It is for sure not. My proposal above is only a first tryout therefore.

I think a good way to say this, is:

Hyperbola wants to  merge the best of those aspects from both BSD and GNU for ultra high security, including privacy and low maintenance/ultra high stability, etc...

But each to their own.

smile

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

4 Reply by zapper

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

hyperboloid wrote:

From the site and the wiki, Hyperbola seems to be less of an operating system than an ideology or a way of life. I admit I was somewhat surprised by this, since it was recommended to me for its security, privacy and anonymity, not for its libre ideology, which seems to be rather more front and center. But I'm happy to take that in my stride, even if it's laid on somewhat thicker than I'm used to.

Something that I'm more wary of is the hyperbola social contract, an edict that Hyperbola likewise set an enormous, in my opinion inordinate, amount of store by. It's unquestionable status as the be-all and end-all strikes me as going rather against the spirit of the libre ideology itself. But since I don't hold that ideology in quite the same regard as Hyperbola seems to, I'm content to let most of that slide as well.

Except for the tenth of the eleven commandments:

Hyperbola and anti-discrimination: All of Hyperbola community are to respect the ethics of freedom and free software and are demanded to show the deepest respect among themselves. Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, ideology, ideas, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Hyperbola encourages freedom of speech. However, do not curse or use offensive language while debating within the Hyperbola community. Do not under any circumstances attack, bully, stalk, or harass any individual (the personal turn) or a certain group. Play the ball, not the man. Any disregard of any of these points will lead to moderation by The Support Staff, including, but not limited to, temporary ban of the person(s) in question. Severe and repeat instances may lead to permanent ban if deemed necessary by The Founders.

A lot of this seems sensible enough, or at least no more silly than the other commandments, but there are a few contradictions.

Firstly, "Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on [...] ideology, ideas". What about when ideologies or ideas (such as communism, fascism, nazism and other forms of socialism) are fundamentally incompatible with the libre ideology, are irreconcilable with the philosophy of free knowledge, preclude respect for the ethics of freedom and free software, and violate the sanctity and sovereignty of the individual?
This clause protects those who violate the social contract, and worse, prevents anyone (including the founders and support staff) from applying the contract in its entirety. It's a catch 22 that leaves everyone (in particular the founders and support staff) with no way out but to hypocritically violate some part of the contract and thereby the contract as a whole.

Secondly, "Any disregard of any of these points will lead to moderation by The Support Staff, including, but not limited to, temporary ban of the person(s) in question. Severe and repeat instances may lead to permanent ban if deemed necessary by The Founders." This too is a contradiction in light of the first.
Because of the previous clause, there can be no moderation by the support staff without their disregard for any of these points. The founders cannot issue permanent bans without violating the social contract. Again, this forces a catch 22 where the only out is hypocrisy: placing the support staff and the founders above the law, by excepting them from the requirement to follow the social contract in its entirety.
And that is an extremely slippery slope with fascism yawning at its base. Not the libre ideology, not the philosophy of free knowledge, not the ethics of freedom and free software, but fascism.

This is more or less,  an issue of what people take as "free speech"

Where I come from, hate speech is being treated as free speech.

This is not the intention of my country's founding fathers, yet it persists.

Point being, hate speech cannot be considered free speech, as it infringes on others' rights.

Basically, my freedom starts where yours ends.

That being said,  I understand this concept is tricky for some in the world, especially for some english speaking people, in specific countries.

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5 Reply by throgh

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

zapper wrote:

I think a good way to say this, is:

Hyperbola wants to  merge the best of those aspects from both BSD and GNU for ultra high security, including privacy and low maintenance/ultra high stability, etc...

But each to their own.

smile

Thanks for adding especially that point.
For now I'm working on the "Social Contract", but not directly within the wiki. Making the paragraph a bit more clear, including two further new paragraphs also, but that needs first a discussion when finished with the wording there.

As noted: Hyperbola and community means democratic base. Not fascism or anything else to harass and dictate. Even though it is for sure the hope that everyone can be happy with the system-base to build on top of it. big_smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6 Reply by hyperboloid

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

throgh wrote:

I invite you for sure to rethink the critical points you see together, so we can make it more clear. And before I forget that point: Welcome here! smile

Thank you! big_smile

I'm not sure that it's proper for me to weigh in too much on any changes, as I'm both completely new and probably less invested in the libre ideology than most people here. But for what its worth, your proposed amendment sounds fine to me smile
In fact, it was really the inclusion of "ideology" and "ideas" that I wanted to convey seemed seemed to create a (potential) contradiction to me.

So the sentence "Ideologies and perspectives with roots in hatred, harassment and exclusion of groups or individuals based on before mentioned grounds are not welcome here." may even be redundant in light of the rest of your proposed amendment. Then again, where's the harm in redundance? It just drives the point home.

throgh wrote:

Tolerating the intolerance itself is not possible as this leads to destruction of democratic principles!

throgh wrote:

So I get your point: Who is watching the ones in control? As our community is for now very small, this seems being far away. It is for sure not.

Exactly, exactly!

zapper wrote:

Point being, hate speech cannot be considered free speech, as it infringes on others' rights.

The problem is that people have different views on what is hate speech. So then there must be very clear definitions agreed on, which ideally avoid any disagreement. But because practice is never as good as ideals, even then someone (in this case, the support staff and the founders) needs to decide whether something is or isn't hate speech, in cases where there is such disagreement.

And that is why I made the second point: if anyone is given the authority to decide in cases where there is disagreement. Then it is very important that they cannot be accused of hypocrisy (by breaking any part of the social contract themselves). Therefore, the contract must be very clear and unambiguous and not contain any (seeming) contradictions.
That is also why I like the part "do not curse or use offensive language while debating", because that should help to avoid ambiguity about when something is hate speech or not. (And I say this as someone who, unfortunately, has picked up a habit of cursing/swearing irl.)

7 Reply by zapper

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

hyperboloid wrote:
throgh wrote:

I invite you for sure to rethink the critical points you see together, so we can make it more clear. And before I forget that point: Welcome here! smile

Thank you! big_smile

I'm not sure that it's proper for me to weigh in too much on any changes, as I'm both completely new and probably less invested in the libre ideology than most people here. But for what its worth, your proposed amendment sounds fine to me smile
In fact, it was really the inclusion of "ideology" and "ideas" that I wanted to convey seemed seemed to create a (potential) contradiction to me.

So the sentence "Ideologies and perspectives with roots in hatred, harassment and exclusion of groups or individuals based on before mentioned grounds are not welcome here." may even be redundant in light of the rest of your proposed amendment. Then again, where's the harm in redundance? It just drives the point home.

throgh wrote:

Tolerating the intolerance itself is not possible as this leads to destruction of democratic principles!

throgh wrote:

So I get your point: Who is watching the ones in control? As our community is for now very small, this seems being far away. It is for sure not.

Exactly, exactly!

zapper wrote:

Point being, hate speech cannot be considered free speech, as it infringes on others' rights.

The problem is that people have different views on what is hate speech. So then there must be very clear definitions agreed on, which ideally avoid any disagreement. But because practice is never as good as ideals, even then someone (in this case, the support staff and the founders) needs to decide whether something is or isn't hate speech, in cases where there is such disagreement.

And that is why I made the second point: if anyone is given the authority to decide in cases where there is disagreement. Then it is very important that they cannot be accused of hypocrisy (by breaking any part of the social contract themselves). Therefore, the contract must be very clear and unambiguous and not contain any (seeming) contradictions.
That is also why I like the part "do not curse or use offensive language while debating", because that should help to avoid ambiguity about when something is hate speech or not. (And I say this as someone who, unfortunately, has picked up a habit of cursing/swearing irl.)

To be fair, some distros go too far with this kind of power or abuse it to get rid of dissenters... however for the first time since they decided to ditch dbus, which probably was 2 years ago... no actually even the move to sndio, xenocara and libressl...

That alone made me realize they are the right distro to trust with this power.

As it stands now, they have actual standards that most other distros either pretend to have, lack a few, etc...

Don't get me wrong, sarcastic/nonsense trolls I am okay with... I like to be silly with them sometimes, elsewhere. xD

Deception or Manipulation or Lies if you prefer
Threats of violence, easy to understand
Trolling can create hate, if its done too often that being said, its not productive, so I understand why he said this.
Spam, again same thing as the threat part... we have had some interesting people spam the Hyperbola issue area and the forums.

Still kind of confused why those link spammers think people here would be stupid enough to fall for their tricks or that we would even be affected by their malware, etc..

Just some thoughts!

But yeah, people can get confused, very easily depending on the location they were born in.

Extremism is a hard pill to escape...

As an aside, I don't consider Hyperbola extreme, I consider a lot of the world to be extreme, but this project ain't a part of it.

smile

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8 Reply by throgh

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

Hey, thanks for feedback all onto this. To be honest there: On our concurrent times I'm really a bit glad about having a seemingly peaceful talk here in a calm forum like ours. We take nevertheless the criticism very serious and have therefore taken that to rework §10 and adding a new §12. Showing them both to follow.

This is the draft for paragraph 10 reworked:

Hyperbola and anti-discrimination: All of Hyperbola community are to respect the ethics of freedom and free software and are required to show the deepest respect among themselves. Under no circumstances discriminate against people based on age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, disability, religion, social class, nationality, race, intelligence, or any analogous grounds. Hyperbola encourages freedom of speech always in combination with personal responsibility: Never think both are not combined. Our community is built on constructive discourse and netiquette. Ideologies and perspectives with roots in hatred, harassment and exclusion of groups or individuals based on before mentioned grounds are not welcome here. However, do not curse or use offensive language while debating within the Hyperbola community. Do not under any circumstances attack, bully, stalk, or harass any individual (the personal turn) or a certain group. Play the ball, not the man. Any disregard of any of these points will lead to moderation by The Support Staff, including, but not limited to, temporary ban of the person(s) in question. Severe and repeat instances may lead to permanent ban if deemed necessary by The Founders.

And this is the new idea for paragraph 12 as we have made already some negative experiences and want to give a clear picture about how it is to work with Hyperbola as team:

Hyperbola and fairness: As the project is driven by democratic principles every community-member has the same rights, also including to ask for transparency. This means that when somebody wants to be part within the team gets a warm welcome. Nevertheless we don't need people with the search for only advantages or leadership, we need people with serious interest to work together with others under the principles of free, libre software and culture. This means also fair and open communication, direct planning together and problem solving based on top of the group. If there is missing interest for those values, a membership should be better left out instead having too much conflicts in the team and community. We also have no interest with empty promises to be mentioned, as we are tied in on our principles and mean it that way.

Yes, they are not final yet as we talk about them, here and also at other places. wink As pointed out: Not a "lifestyle", but responsibility taken seriously. Others may say (nobody meant here in the thread of the community) this sounds strange and why we bother about free, libre culture that much or bother much about having a constructive talk. Well? The answer is easy found within this thread - thanks therefore - and everyone else here in the forums.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9 Reply by zapper

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

[I mentioned the some might say, as to avoid being explicit about who those people might be... albeit my point being, some think freedom allows you do literally anything you want regardless of others' rights and no matter the manipulation, danger, abuse, etc... meaning abuse of power...

But yeah, no need to repeat beyond this, hope this is somewhat useful to you and others.


quote=throgh]Hey, thanks for feedback all onto this. To be honest there: On our concurrent times I'm really a bit glad about having a seemingly peaceful talk here in a calm forum like ours. We take nevertheless the criticism very serious and have therefore taken that to rework §10 and adding a new §12. Showing them both to follow.

This is the draft for paragraph 10 reworked:

Hyperbola and fairness: As the project is driven by democratic principles every community-member has the same rights, also including to ask for transparency. This means that when somebody wants to be part within the team gets a warm welcome. Nevertheless we don't need people with the search for only advantages or leadership, we need people with serious interest to work together with others under the principles of free, libre software and culture. This means also fair and open communication, direct planning together and problem solving based on top of the group. If there is missing interest for those values, a membership should be better left out instead having too much conflicts in the team and community. We also have no interest with empty promises to be mentioned, as we are tied in on our principles and mean it that way.

Yes, they are not final yet as we talk about them, here and also at other places. wink As pointed out: Not a "lifestyle", but responsibility taken seriously. Others may say (nobody meant here in the thread of the community) this sounds strange and why we bother about free, libre culture that much or bother much about having a constructive talk. Well? The answer is easy found within this thread - thanks therefore - and everyone else here in the forums.

Btw, noticed you been changing the wiki for whatever reason. It is about time... smile

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10 Reply by throgh

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

Our Social Contract got an official update now with the changes, here: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … l_contract

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

11 Reply by hyperboloid

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Re: Hyperbola Social Contract §10 Hyperbola and anti-discrimination

throgh wrote:

Our Social Contract got an official update now with the changes, here: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id … l_contract

👍