1 (edited by nparafe 2023-06-07 03:19:49)

Topic: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

Disclaimer:
This is not a request or crtisism to hyperbola team, I know the
limitations theyhave in human resources and I respsect (and support) 
the choise of freedom over featutres. This is just a discussion so
people can propose ideas and workourounds. I invite you to talk about
xmpp only and no other messaging alternatives (e.g. tox or others)

There are many xmpp clients
outhere, but only two have passed hyperbola's freedom checks: pidgin
with
[url=https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/extra/x86_64/libpurple-lurch/]lurch
plugin[/url]) and profanity.

They have some major drowbacks though.

The main one is currently unresovable, as there is no
xep-0313 (MAM)
support in either of those clients. This means no ofline messages. The
only client of the two that has plans to implement it is profanity.

Another problem is that pidgin has no
[url=https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html]xep-280 Message
Carbons[/url] support in hyperbola. There is an
experemental plugin for
pidgin but I didn't find it in hyperbola's repos.

Profanity (now in version 0.13.1 - hyperbola has 0.10) has carbons
enabled. It is simple to master as the team behind it published a great
video tutorial. But it
  is a terminal client without gui (apart from system tray support).

let them build as many prisons as they want.
Even if the siege is closing in around us.
Our mind is like a wanderer, and will always be free.

2

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

What is wrong with Mcabber, Bitlebee, or nbxmpp?

3

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

profanity has not released version 13.x, it is version 0.13.x.
As "Debian Bullseye" has backport for 0.13.x, we can surely go for an update. But please to remember: Hyperbolas strategy is NOT to offer all-time convinience when it comes for the price to add questionable libraries, frameworks and Linux-only bloatware. Also to note: Personal I have even an issue with libsignal-protocol-c, out of the reasoning who has created that library. And also to note, that it is no longer in active development. So all in all we would even go for questioning this package in the near future.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

4

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

Thank you for answering Throgh.

throgh wrote:

profanity has not released version 13.x, it is version 0.13.x.

I have updated the post.

throgh wrote:

Also to note: Personal I have even an issue with libsignal-protocol-c, out of the reasoning who has created that
library

Can you please provide more info?

throgh wrote:

So all in all we would even go for questioning this package in the near future.

As I understand, you are talking about omemo support, am I right?

let them build as many prisons as they want.
Even if the siege is closing in around us.
Our mind is like a wanderer, and will always be free.

5

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

Sure thing! smile

Yes, we are talking about the omemo-implementations.
First: We would like not to remove any support and therefore library. But nevertheless a second perspective would be good on that library. As that library is provided throughout Open Whisper Systems as they are connected towards the Signal Technology Foundation and they are funding the Signal Messenger LLC, who are developing the application and framework around Signal. You see already here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Whisper_Systems) that there are many names within. But that's not only the point besides this strikes my personal critical perspective already. smile

About the library itself (here is the repository: https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal-protocol-c): It was marked as "archived" in February 2022. The newer implementation is nowadays done in Rust: https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal
Besides the point that Signal is anything but surely not oriented for "technical emancipation" sidewise for mobile devices. So all in all left: Either we stick with XMPP and therefore self-hosted, organized servers, tox or others. Likewise we would then need to look around for an alternative towards libsignal-protocol-c as you see again here an example where profanity and liblurch are using only one library essential and mandatory. But this library is not without critical points. hmm Not only the group (company) behind (Whisper Systems prompted that Signal is all good, but nevertheless only most centralized), but also they seem to have ditched the C-implementation like others before. Hyperbola is oriented onwards that the user will be always in charge and command. The user installs the system, the user commands the system and the system is for sure NOT downloading further parts when building or running - only when the user commands it. wink

The free and libre community needs to review their used implementations. When we rely too much on questionable frameworks and more, we will loose everything for sure. That's the reason for HyperbolaBSD. Maybe it is very cautious, but better to stay in control for an operating-system in a whole. The alternative is to rely on implementations done first by groups transforming into so-called "foundations" bought and funded from companies. A real foundation is absolutely different towards, nothing negative on it. Staying in control and command is the vision and essential for Hyperbola. Especially therefore we are doing that much work with auditing the sources for our BSD-implementation. And especially therefore we are also oriented on free, libre licensed software. Sources have to be provided and making foul compromises like done with "asking for permission to modify" (Rust and others) is nothing we will ever do. In the end it is even not bad that the current library is marked as "archived", so it can be forked right away more easily and developed independent.

And especially our essentials for technical emancipation is the point we are very cautious about implementing more. We don't like the phrase "move fast, breaking things". We like: Move slow and preserve, but stay true and steady for values to have a system working for a really long time, even without being connected outside.

Yes, you have noted that this thread should be foremost only about XMPP and possible solutions. But bringing into my perspective from packaging and developing: This is most no longer possible as it is all connected. We need nevertheless (digital) safe spaces, where speaking is taken by word and people are honest together, with empathy and solidarity. The hope WAS (yes, past form selected) that free and libre software can bring this. But we have lost the course - from my point - by just seeking for the newest "stuff" instead of bringing a good fitting overall system together, so people feel safe and confident. Until we reach back to this point, we need to take care and also need to bring up the warnings. Because that's all I can do: Warn about the overall development. Communication counts, words are important, but they should be selected wise and not without meaning because all has lost its "meaning" and everything is for the "fun". That's a NO: Safe space, developing together in person and code, feeling well for a good system and preserve freedom, confidence and democratic points all together. Not what the "internet" is nowadays about: Seeking in simulated anonymous spaces (those do not exist) for just getting the own ego. Even when I'm not interested to bring my whole private life "online", I stay honest with my perspective and be nice to others for helping. About five years back I thought there is no need to write that down, but this has changed for sure and I'm glad we do it here different as we try hard.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6 (edited by nparafe 2023-06-07 12:01:29)

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

Very useful notes. Excellent!

Indeed the bazaar model has now collapsed or proven bad. "Open source camp" has received so much toxic money from big tech that is now irrelevant in the struggle to liberate society.

Let's keep searching for communication methods that are ethical and do not compromize users freedom!

let them build as many prisons as they want.
Even if the siege is closing in around us.
Our mind is like a wanderer, and will always be free.

7

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

I don't know if the open source camp is irrelevant, but its certainly not what it needs to be in most cases.

If it ain't libre, be very wary of it, seems to be wise though.

I very much include bloatware as being non-libre, aka, stuff that depends on linux frameworks that most distros have but Hyperbola doesn't.

wink

Glad there are other options to the usual tho.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

8

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

throgh wrote:

About the library itself (here is the repository: https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal-protocol-c): It was marked as "archived" in February 2022. The newer implementation is nowadays done in Rust: https://github.com/signalapp/libsignal

Maybe there is hope?
https://github.com/dino/libomemo-c

let them build as many prisons as they want.
Even if the siege is closing in around us.
Our mind is like a wanderer, and will always be free.

9

Re: Discussion about xmpp, hyperbola and freedom

Let's see when this is ready: https://github.com/profanity-im/profani … 1401489326

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!