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Topic: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

Hello,

within this thread we want start collecting information and thoughts for the removal of udev / eudev as "dropin-replacement". See the point where udev is: It grants more easy access but is in a whole part of systemd as monolithic block. So there is no freedom of choice, just the enforced adoption and breaking backwards compatibility.

Starting now with listings for possible projects:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-uuid
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-platform
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-pci
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-lvm2
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-cdrom
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/smdev-libudev-zero
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/libudev-zero-git
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/nldev
https://github.com/illiliti/libudev-zero
https://github.com/capezotte/artix-elogind-smdev


The first thought is that we can go forward with smdev as the mdevd is mostly only for terminal-output and running. But for desktop-usage we need surely a bit more as otherwise the X-server won't startup correct. So we can summarize all the script-packages in just one package and the resulting would be:

smdev (project and all scripting, including OpenRC and Runit)
nldev (project for netlink, including OpenRC and Runit)
libudev-zero (library in usage for further udev-replacement)

Please share your thoughts and insights, your ideas and help us working on a solution.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

Furthermore interesting:

https://github.com/jiixyj/libudev-fbsd

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

Also possible:

vdev -> https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/vdev

In combination with libudev-compat -> https://git.devuan.org/aitor_czr/libudev-compat

Further sources: http://packages.gnuinos.org/vdev/pool/main/

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

To underline why this idea is now in the room after 0.4.5 and beyond: eudev is retired from Gentoo as said: https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-ite … ement.html

The wiki-pages at Gentoo are archived and do not get more attention, even removed partwise - so far towards erratic decisions made by Hyperbola towards some people out there citing criticism. Approvals:

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Eudev

udev / eudev is not available on BSD. We cannot afford porting that parts and will not do that as it makes no sense doing something alike being part of bloated and Linux-only framework systemd. How about others? This can be also checked:

Gentoo -> using udev clearly now from systemd
Artix -> using udev clearly now from systemd besides let it look alike eudev
Alpine -> maintaining eudev, but favorite systemd-inclusion
Devuan -> maintaining eudev

There is not much more around. So the reasoning is surely for Hyperbola beyond 0.4.6 to think about leaving the last remnant of most Linux-only behind.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

Critical parts for the moment being depending on eudev / udev:

cups
dosfstools
util-linux

For util-linux possible: https://lists.openembedded.org/g/openem … sage/18572

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6 (edited by zapper 2024-03-13 03:31:11)

Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

I thought udev was not originally part of the systemd project.

I recall seeing that it eventually joined it for whatever reason, same with xorg.

Does OpenBSD have some other options available to do the same job? Just curious man.

Although, on further seeing of your posts, even then if its not supported on BSD it is wise to get rid of it.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

OpenBSD is not the only one we orient towards. But in general: "udev" is also a Linux-only one framework and included in systemd longer time ago. eudev was one project getting it single-sided back. But same as other approaches: All of them depend on upstream. There was never a hard fork done. So it is even more needed to get alternatives running with, either better portable or complete different.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

Mentioning smdev especially leaves most time also remarks from people that the projects from "suckless" are not designed for dynamic configurations. Meaning: There is no configuration-file and all is part of the compiled binary later on. So changing the dev-tree needs always an update for the whole package including also the possible source-tree. That's a bit problematic for sure.

On the other side there is mdev as said: https://skarnet.org/software/mdevd/
With: https://github.com/slashbeast/mdev-like-a-boss

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

throgh wrote:

OpenBSD is not the only one we orient towards. But in general: "udev" is also a Linux-only one framework and included in systemd longer time ago. eudev was one project getting it single-sided back. But same as other approaches: All of them depend on upstream. There was never a hard fork done. So it is even more needed to get alternatives running with, either better portable or complete different.

Yeah, I suppose it is linux only, but I do recall it being free from systemd at one point. Still, if its linux only then you are right to do so.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: [Hyperbola] Researches for removal of udev / eudev (v0.4.6 or beyond)

A fork (not a hard fork) is just depending always on upstream. To be compatible with systemd-udev eudev needs to jump the same, include the same development and function-calls. So eudev is per definition not free from systemd. It never was, it never will be. The same as with elogind: Both have to jump in the same development and support the same functionalities, implement the same additions. Otherwise essential other applications won't work. That's the point with KDE and Gnome. Both ignorant enough not respecting the freedom of choice. And same with most all other desktop-environments

It is NOT free from systemd, it is NOT free to be called as alternative. It is just a helper to simulate something being there. As long as those so-called "alternatives" are used the real problems are not possible to be seen. And one essential problem is that many calls around and in GNU/Linux are going with udev, which is essential part of systemd. There is no alternative implementation, it is just this. Same as with D-Bus and many others. There are "alternatives", but they have to follow the so-called standardized implementations. There is no different choice or other possible solution on that special road. And HyperbolaBSD won't have any "udev". So Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre does not need it either.

There are surely variants like eudev for example giving the udev-version out and trying to backport functionalities towards existing implementations before udev was integrated into systemd in a whole. This may work for the time being and is some wrapper around. But the longer and newer implementations get the more problematic this is going. Also for Hyperbola with the current ideas within here as they are also partwise a wrapper with libudev-zero, which is a intermediate "library in the middle" for simulating. With our current way forward we will pay a price for sure and this means also especially going away from very centric applications and projects around Gnome and KDE. Those will stop working sooner or later for sure.

To underline: Not udev itself is going to be the problem besides being foremost only onwards GNU/Linux, but the inclusion of udev into systemd is the big elephant in the room. And with its exclusive integration systemd became also even more integral element. It is not just that Linux (with or without GNU) was designed in its roots that way, it was made that way over the course of corporations and companies doing that. And this way of forced adoption got that problems ahead. Exactly this, because maintainers of systemd said so often that nobody is forced to use systemd and now what? We all know that this phrase is just done out of convinience. Would systemd not be that much adopted? Well, working. Would systemd be adopted (which happened)? Well, you can always go for searching alternatives, but we are not responsible for you ending without updates or working tools. Yes, you are. Same as with the removal of 32bit. Is there a thought for people and states simplified not having the money to afford buying newest hardware? We are leaving really people alone with all of this. A minimalistic system, with the point of control by its users and developers together, not just one instance alone.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!