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Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

We make democratic participation possible when we look for technical emancipation, giving all people the possibility to secure their data and have their beloved files likewise where they want them, most near local. When we only use buzzwords like "open-source" or "open-minded" we conclude only in competition. But competition is NOT the way to go, co-working and participation is forward. And inclusion of more and more questionable interfaces from more than only questionable parties is also NOT the way to go. Is Rust really a way forward? Social-speaking, not technical only. If we only look on technical aspects, we will loose and miss the generic point of free, libre culture: Change the code, learn from it, share the modifications as wanted and use it for whatever purpose.

But we also need to question: Is it really fine to conclude also the aspect of "you can make money with free, libre software"? We can look already where this has brought us to. We are loosing and have already lost on a wide field. Many projects are no longer going with free, libre culture as Hyperbola had to put also some on hold out of various reasons. The way forward is participation from my point of view, not only inclusion of wide more packages. And if we can collect even older packages and projects, we are winning more. wink But with Linux this is not really longer winning anything as to ask in the ending now: How long until Rust for example is mandatory for building? Ask yourself.

On the one hand the community is criticizing in long texts why Google, Meta (Facebook), Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and many more have too much power and hold on too much projects. On the other hand projects and others let go of this criticism and take over or even integrate questionable, even clear non-free dependencies. So again: Ask yourself, is that a way forward? Yes, zstd, protobuf and many more, but where are the forks? Where is the community taking over and take part, take action of the problems by working outside the common paradigm, creating a new one? I cannot see much on a wide field. And that's the issue, not that Hyperbola is removing packages and reduce dependency-trees. That's only a symptom of the current course taken. We cannot take "toxic presents", even if they are licensed permissive and somewhat free. Somebody asked about the patents? Someone asked further what would happen if for example free, libre games going attractive enough? What would happen? Do you really think the industry and economy states than again "We love open-source!"? Come on, that's a buzzword and illusion. Implementing "DirectX" into mesa for what purpose exactly? Yes, for having better Vulkan-support when running graphical intense programs (games) throughout Wine. No, not even native porting, just that: Wine. So where is the engagement? Exactly, nothing and to await from companies doing that is the wrong way forward. The economy is doing exactly nothing for free, libre soft- / hardware. Zero outcome, only using buzzwords because people work for them without getting anything back - okay, besides some rights. But is the toolset in the hand of the community? Well, again: Ask yourself.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

52

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

And coming up next also: Yes, environmental issues are included within engagement. The more "we" as global society focus only on "online" web-installations, -services and -appliances, the more disastrous the outcome. Reasoning: More servers for more data with more energy-consumption. So blocking those called "modern websites" is active protection, not only for data and privacy but also for the environment. I thought a longer time ago that GNU/Linux might help therefore, reviving and holding older systems for longer period of time. But this thoughts are gone with the bitter, sweet recognition that this gone since 2019 around. We can watch now on a daily base more projects arise with more bloated usage on all levels: social, technical and economical. Projects and people choose to adopt only without further questioning. Time to go, time for a change and / or for the first time to hold on.

Yes, Hyperbola is NOT serving always the newest packages. But this is meant intentional and I fear personal, that we won't see more light coming when we don't do something about the consumption of energy. Energy and electricity is coming not only from some sockets, some power outlets. When we do not stop, we have to pay a bitter price for our ignorance. So, sorry to say but from my viewpoint, if people just consume without question - alike Spotify, Netflix and whatever else - they are not helping for the moment to solve the issues. If people tend to buy hardware every year just because they need more graphic-power, same way. We could find solutions, but social issues are not be solved technical alike technical issues are not the solution for everything.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

53

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Is it helpful to "trust" companies and corporations? Well, the generic opinion seem more oriented on principles of utilitarianism: If something is for the "greater good", then it is commonly to be accepted. But there is a point missing as freedom to decide individual and freedom to decide in a group should go together. Making such a "compromise" can end also very fast and harsh.

That is exactly what happens: Trusting individuals or some smaller groups is different to trust in "companies" and "corporations". That's not a comparable eye level for any kind of compromise to flatten the decision making. Even when a project from "companies" and "corporations" is licensed free and permissive with a fork being possible: There are patents, there are copyright-holders for different parts of the software-project. Changing the license is therefore complicated. Nevertheless the community of free, libre software is just thinking too pragmatic on the one hand and too single-sided on the other hand: Stating that "someone is doing a fork", is the pragmatic approach. Where is the fork of the Linux-kernel getting GNU/Linux-libre the real and definite touch? Where is the fork for systemd, reducing its complexity and making different components again available without it? Where is the alternative fork for dbus? Where is the implementation for all of this? Exactly: Not existing, just words for an illusion.

And than it comes to the point that people look for every single line of JavaScript stating to be non-free. Yes, non-free JavaScript is not good and absolutely not helpful. How about even NO JavaScript on the other side? Reducing its amount towards even zero will leave many websites completely dysfunctional. Nevertheless people accept JavaScript even as part to be executed on servers, stating it is "free licensed". Come on, really? Security-issues at hands for NodeJS and others around. Interesting that this is from many accepted while other side they immediately go for criticism when non-free JavaScript is in sight. Why not criticizing the whole sphere and systematics? Any problem with that to leave that out and find back to the roots?

Also mentioning that more and more projects include non-free services direct in the sources. Latest examples? supertux and inkscape, but that's okay? Same for circumvention of "YouTube" with yt-dlp. Not watching then on "YouTube" but with some trick around. Sorry, but this logic has an error. wink

The point made: Let's get back to the real grounds and mark what is important. And that is not only some selected themes but the severe damage free, libre culture has taken over the last years. And to be clear: There is no room for companies and corporations within free, libre software. We need to be honest with ourselves: It is just nice marketing when stated to "love open-source", not even talking about the vague and really wrong term "open-source" used. Even when companies like Purism and / or Framework state they want to "invest in free, libre software" they only do this for their own advantage as same like when other companies state to "protect the environment". No they all don't, they just make marketing with an image. They are not anymore trustworthy than any other smaller project. Also to underline: Those projects are even promising  and giving room for everyone to attend and enhance while companies and corporations only take the work done without anything else. So what's left? We need to stop telling illusions.

For Hyperbola free, libre software means to be community-organized, long-term stable oriented and most minimalistic, lightweight. Not to decline possible porting, but for this we need also more engagement and not only demands and illusions.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

54

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Does GNU/Linux offer the possibility to have really older systems and devices running? Not really any longer. The (not-official) promise - yes, it was indeed never given that way - is in our days more and more breaking. You want to have an older nvidia-graphicsadapter? Well, if you have some luck you can use nouveau while Nvidia is not offering support and even system-distributions only offer some "legacy" drivers or perhaps nouveau. But with that not enough: You would need also the possible infrastructure and support from the kernel and when this is going missing and removed? Exactly, being stucked on a Linux-kernel while people around always state the "upgrade"-mantra because otherwise you may guilty your computer is misused.

Sorry, that's not working that. Yes, there are surely other possibilities nevertheless around. But there are flaws in the comments done like the mentioned promise: "You have an older or outdated system? Use GNU/Linux." No, please be more accurate and not working as the kernel itself get more and more thrown out drivers. You remember? "Move fast, destroy things." The logic is failed from beginning to the end and GNU/Linux is the same with its approach now.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

55

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

You can only work together, when people are willing together. And no one said that the Linux-kernel is "poison". It is source-code for now most free and permissive licensed. So there is no poison until people accept that. It all depends on personal decisions as always. So far: There are no forks made, no further work on GNU/Linux-libre besides increasing amount of scripting to remove more and more firmware-blobs and relations with every new version. And no real will to work toger for the moment.

The failures based on:

- Missing political and historical analysis
- Understanding of the roots for the movement based on exactly that analysis
- Some very wide defined form of "software-freedom" which can be also stated as "Be nice to each other"

Exactly the last note is not working as many have a different understanding of "be nice" or "be friendly". That's the major issue.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

56

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Also to underline from our point of view: Making free, libre software and culture sustainable means political analysis and understanding. Far from that point the FSF and FSFE rejected many times doing that, pointing out even just only code free and libre licensed is "sufficient".

Okay, and how do we want to learn so we can reject various alarming signals? Like telemetry-inclusions in different projects? Centralizing architectures in so-called "decentralized" projects? How do we want to go against hatred and harassment against minorities? And especially: Every democracy has one clear element naming it "limitation on term of office". Let us think again: How long are some people in charge to represent projects and organizations? Power needs to be shared, people needs to get possibilities for emancipation. Political analysis and history of the movement is needed instead to fail for foul promises and short-sighted phrases. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

57

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Just to note that Debian is phasing out 32bit: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00003.html

Personal stating: It it absolute not okay to "phase out" support when hardware is also nowadays fully functional. Mixing x86-architectures like running 32bit on 64bit is exactly not a good way forward. And this will also motivate people to declare something as "not useful" when it is nevertheless working. That's not irritating but complete unlogic and irrational.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

58

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

The common fail of "open-source" thinking: Having two perspectives ... in the one hand the "free software" and the other hand the "architect for software". Sorry people, this is NOT working. In the end free, libre software is always the section loosing as we humans will always choose the common thinking for convinience and egoism. But okay? Libreboot booting up Windows: https://mas.to/@libreleah/111711874705451258

And the outcome: https://mas.to/@libreleah/111720274391379764

Cool (sarcasm), Libreboot is now able to boot non-free operating-system. So what was the original intention? Can anybody repeat this, because I remember so bad ... ah yes: Free, libre software or something like that. Wasn't it, or was it? Sorry, but no. Exactly here it is shown. Yes, people can play, people can also document. But we all know the outcome. Has anybody more freedom, security and privacy out of this? Anybody? Or was it just for the ego of some people? But we can clearly see here, where this is going. Free, libre software being made "fluid". Not through Libreboot alone, but this is just another nail in long prepared coffin. sad

Sure to get not wrong: That's not Leah's decision and not her intention. But the world is in a hurry as it seems, better said our "human world" and I see us more into the need to recognize and stop for some time to reflect more. So also the original tester: More about a "proof of concept", not anything more. The fear here is nevertheless the same as before others arise: The "proof of concept" gets to a common usage and Leah's intention is getting under the wheels.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

59

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Also to underline: What is the most danger for free, libre software? Not so easy to answer but a piece in this puzzle is sure taken by the users themself. As the more common "Linux" (only as name alone) gets, the more problematic the situation seems to be. As users await always the newest and freshest software. Driven by several so-called "Linux influencers" out there reporting whatever we have rising fingerpointing that only the systems biggest with freshest software-packages are acknowlegded. The question is: Are system-distributions not also part and another important one? From the perspectives of those group of people: No. System-distributions are only then "good" when they follow what upstream is stating and maintainers want. When systems fork something or freeze it on their own? They get issues and criticisms. So here the circle is closing: The endless upgrade-process instead of stable and just working systems. And here we are, here we go again.

No, that is just not a generic criticism towards all users. But it is one point we should have in the back when there is again someone called "influencer" or "important person with whatever name" is telling this around the global network. Better to keep it like: Someone on the "internet" is telling something in those days. And system-distributions are doing their part for sure. Otherwise some maintainers should definite ask themself what they really want and if they are really interested in free, libre software with giving rights to every user, including systems and the people behind also.

This came to my mind as I read the discussions between Debian-people and the maintainer and creator of xscreensaver. Yes, people asking for messages of the package being distributed (like "Please update, you have an old version.") may for sure take the time of the maintainer. But it is also the right of any system, any individual to use the software they want. Otherwise we should really rethink the whole point with the four freedoms at a point either or stop listening and spreading those situations like those so-called "influencers" are doing. And believe it or not: They are quoted and their messages are getting attention, too much of that from my perspective. Everyone has own perspectives, but when it goes that far to demand always freshest and newest and offering big amount of packages, smaller systems cannot hold up to this. Neither with any infrastructure nor with "more" people. Projects like Hyperbola exist being an anti-thesis to the growing number of packages in other systems, not to create a highscore-listing, more to set point to be a minimalistic system possible.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

60

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

With more Linux-only implementations we have also more issues with frameworks like GTK+ on-going. Not only D-Bus being enforced: Now it is also Vulkan seen as the "future" and leaving OpenGL more and more behind marked as "very old":

(...)

With the newly-minted GTK 4.13.6 snapshot the NGL renderer is serving as the default with the hope it's in good shape without having to revert to the old OpenGL renderer for GTK 4.14. Those on "very old" hardware will likely be best off using the classic OpenGL renderer that can be enabled via the "GSK_RENDERER=gl" environment variable.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/GTK-State … -Renderers

GNU/Linux and Linux in common is going to be more and more a severe problem instead of a solution. It was told as solution for so many people and nowadays is oriented only on "modern" solution leaving all others behind or enforce to buy newest hardware. Sorry, but that is no solution: There are enough people, who cannot afford that. And stating that "very old" for hardware is marking that also is "useless" without stating direct.

So many projects are going in that direction, and yet people lament corporate influence and orientation with a surprised face-expression. Please see through that: That's why Hyperbola is oriented only on community-projects and also why Hyperbola ask for working with. Demanding from a very small team to write and serve "ready-to-use" articles is not working in a community-perspective. Support together means also to state and work together, to write articles, collect information and tryout. Writing guidelines just from theories is not working.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

61 (edited by anthk 2024-01-30 20:52:09)

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

I'm tired of the doublespeak of these people. Either you support the FSF, or you don't. You ported Emacs to Win32 with WineGcc and WineLib (or a cross MSYS build)? That's good as a ladder to educate users to step on fully libre software later. Yes, I can crosscompile GNU software for users stuck with old w32 systems, I know some of them. You show Libreboot booting Windows? Who cares? The entire point of GNU and FSF it's to free the computing of handcuffs.

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Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

anthk wrote:

I'm tired of the doublespeak of these people. Either you support the FSF, or you don't. You ported Emacs to Win32 with WineGcc and WineLib (or a cross MSYS build)? That's good as a ladder to educate users to step on fully libre software later. Yes, I can crosscompile GNU software for users stuck with old w32 systems, I know some of them. You show Libreboot booting Windows? Who cares? The entire point of GNU and FSF it's to free the computing of handcuffs.

And exactly that is neither the FSF nor GNU doing in all parts. Yes, they support some parts but when you ask for making bloated libraries and components towards that exactly what they should be - optional - you see where this is going. Hyperbola has used gettext-tiny for exactly that: Because GNU gettext is per clear definition accepting and adapting environment-variables being defined optional. But as members asked gettext and its maintainers for possible making different problematic languages optional the answer was clear: Not caring.

There are several more examples: Like endless debates with the FSF about licensing-issues with different project, naming some like Rust, PHP and OpenJDK. What was the result? The same again, with the addition as people made fun out of Hyperbola and people behind. Reaction as grown-ups? Surely not really. Even not to be called "childish" as children have a clear and common understanding to act without issues each other. But here comes the point: Being taught on-going to act only in competition ends up in what the wording "childish" is meant and that is what the FSF and GNU are doing. They are the ones getting "handcuffs" as you are forced to use Linux-specific frameworks on non-Linux environments. They are the ones not getting the point and not caring enough so there is left enough room for others like corporations and companies filling the empty spaces with false definitions. The weak point of free, libre software is the point of a long time denying any kind of analyses for the historical roots and political clea positions for free, libre software.

And from my point: Free, libre software deserves better treatment. Showing people possible solutions? Yes. But also supporting people on projects while at the current point they are left alone.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

63

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

The ignorance is really interesting in these days, especially also on the side of people pretending to stand in for free and libre software. What do I mean with that? The on-going point that 32bit-support needs to vanish. So for what exactly? When I personal state that this should not happen I mean that everyone of us is taking over responsibility with hardware. So at minimum hardware should work as long as possible because buying new is also nothing friendly for our climate and environment. How can we do like there is nothing to do? Or "others" are doing quite more damage? If we argument further that way, we will do further more injustice coming.

First point: Hardware is expensive in our current time. Why exactly are more and more projects cutting off the support for countries and also people with not that much financial capacities? That's the point of injustive I really do not understand. Second point: As mentioned for what purpose? For following further development we never needed? Like "machine learning" as an example. That is defined ignorance again: We damage and risk everything just for the search of the newest ideas. We have not even found good ways forward to identify lies, hearsay and half-truths. People believe whatever they like, absurdities included. And then we talk about development for generating more and more questionable data? Images, texts, sounds and even videos. That is really what to be called freedom from responsibility and it is questionable to see how people ignore the on-going problems while they run behind the next "hot hardware"-trend. Linux as kernel and the GNU-project had the chance to be something different. But this chance is gone for good!

So where is the issue to bring the support for hardware and software further? Keep it that way as long as possible and support people, supporting groups of people instead of give them not even any solution.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

64

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

Interesting when Hyperbola gets accused for so-called erratic decision-making while it is clear to see that really all possible is done to preserve and manage a stable system-base for every release. Let's look elsewhere, for example on Alpine and PostmarketOS. PostmarketOS is clearly going towards systemd as they now showed within their announcment. The reasoning? Polyfills are not capable to work as dropin-replacements, so KDE or others would run better.

This taken a follow-up came afterwards from Ariadne Conill, including to call different other implementations "pet init system". Annotation from me in this: Please do not jump into those discussion-spaces and harass others or spread insults on whatever base.

This brings several conclusions:

- As mentioned the big desktop-environments like KDE, Gnome, Xfce, Mate and others are not oriented to offer any other interface for different and smaller implementations. They just do not work without systemd.
- System-maintainers like Ariadne Conill and the team behind PostmarketOS react here as they have a hard decision to make: Either leaving the big desktop-environments full behind or take the bitter pill.

In general it is the same as the debates before about OpenSSL and LibreSSL. At one point people take much ahead, really want to create an alternative. After a period of time it is clear to see that Linux and the corporate implementations have the longer hand. systemd is one corporate implementations and it is just seen as "mature" without seeing also the social and ethical components and issues coming with. Linux is not oriented to be a partner for technical emancipation and for people in favor of small and minimalistic implementations. Yes sure thing: It is not that corporations and companies are funding much into the development, but this makes the outcome even more worse. All the work is misused even more and nevertheless people cheer up for all so-called progress.

To recall Hyperbolas position: It is just quite simple as we do not want to use systemd as a de-facto declared, so-called standard. We want a simple but yet open designed system, including also a corresponding service-management after initialization. We dislike bloated, over-engineered implementations like systemd. Yes, over time projects change, get their problems away and more. This does not make our essential points about systemd going away: We just do not want to use it. But the essential point here also in the debates show up again: People do not see that the de-facto declaration as "standard" gives systemd too much power on behalf of its structure. It is not a common project like the others in comparison, it is not possible to compare smaller init-implementations or service-managements towards systemd as it has grown beyond. This is a danger and high risk. And towards the bigger systems: The bigger it gets the sooner the decisions are no longer oriented towards free and libre software and community projects. It is a point only to give awaitings and here are more people responsible, also the free and libre community awaiting "more convinience". And most of the Linux-only frameworks are only consisting the so-called "bitter pill". This means everyone is left with only the choice done by others.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

65

Re: Reasoning for leaving GNU/Linux: Definitely needed!

What is now the conclusion about the xz-backdoor and the retrospective about? Well, even it is really too early stating a final conclusion we can see nevertheless that the state of "rolling release" is not the way to go. Furthermore also the state in mind the "newest is always better" is also not working. But we have even worse outcome: Packaging is not only to be done right out of compiling some package and be ready. It needs to be tested, researched and approved.

And on behalf of that: Linux (with or without GNU-components) has abandoned those concepts for a longer time ago. The more packages, the better. This is the outcome and it can't be more worse. Packaging is nothing to be done in the hot air. Patching the same. There is development-experience needed. And we have enough actors and acting persons stating to do "something for free software" but in fact they have really no clue what they are doing or claim that it would be enough when "some developers sit together and do something". That is not working, planning is needed more than before.

Also: Free, libre software is political and NOT neutral. Sound like a nice wish, but this is not working like peoples wish. So stating to be "neutral" is not working here. The actors in this latest attack were surely political motivated and they would have had success. It was just a little bit of luck and examination this would not be more dramatic. Linux is a damaged sphere, not more secure than others. Sure thing: It is always what you make out of it. Nevertheless it is time to leave all this behind. Time for the niche.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!