1

Topic: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Well, I have tried to get some things sorted out as it seems there was another drama going on these days as the development-team behind browsers like Pale Moon and Basilisk reacted to derivated work - to mention that again as it seems but more about that point later on - and therefore removed also their work onto the UXP-framework. So first things first: Is that what is left about free and libre software? Accusations, hunting for others making mistakes and therefore making the same ones to follow? Well, maybe I don't have the whole picture so I'll share what I've got for now thanks to zapper, Emulatorman and Gaming4JC. Here is the first part of this drama:

https://github.com/Feodor2/Centaury/issues/40

The second to follow:

https://github.com/Feodor2/Centaury/issues/39

But well? This goes way beyond to read here:

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … mp;t=27294

Followed by another reaction throughout just a question:

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … 90#p220190

The question was:

However, UXP itself was unbranded, so I don't understand why the entire UXP was killed off? I presume this means "Platform Codebase" will be released as tarball only and without public version control/git? What does this mean for the future of compliant allied projects?

Thanks.

More to come therefore, sorry for using reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/palemoon/comme … 20_public/

So first people accuses others not having a full source-code-tree and therefore repository. I hope I've got that point, please for sure: Correct it if wrong. And now instead making the best out of it the development-team is doing the same? And the reaction about further questions:

No it waa his secomd violation of the MPL section 3.1(a) and under secrion 5.1 i terminated the grant to use my contributions.

Okay, I remove the repository because I can and I am willing to do as it is my right to do. What's next coming? I have literally millions of questions in my head now: The idea of free software is the right to compile anything at any time and fixing issues with compilation at will and need. But it seems we have another point here: The copyright and the will of individuals to do whatever they want at any time. Thanks for all the fish or what is it about? Literally: Releasing only source-packages at a given time makes patching not only more complicated. It is for packaging purpose absolutely needed otherwise people here being into packaging have not only a harder time: We cannot rely onto those packages any longer. We can fix issues in one place or another, but is it correct? Is it the way the package, application and framework was / is intended to work? Could this have side-effects - an important point in software-development? So I have done the most possible in a short amount of time to get some points sorted out for a start of any kind of discussion. But this won't be for sure the whole picture. What I know for sure: The trust into both browsers is for me now into ruins and gone for good, not meaning the UXP-applications here within Hyperbola. But especially mail-client and browsers are sensible. The "internet" is beyond broken for sure, but do we need even more conflicts? I thought we have enough for real and got a hard time the last years. And for the point mentioned at the beginning of the posting: https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86

I can understand many things, also not being related to do support for other projects and derivates. But the picture I've got here now shows even more: A behaviour beyond respectful, beyond helping and for sure making jokes about people using older software. That is not okay in any way! sad
And reacting to questions in such harsh way also not. That's beyond everything: More drama-making and full with disrespect on so many levels. At best I return to use just the good old C64, no internet-drama and just some of very good games. For sure being sarcastic onto that, but being serious: Drawing lines and clear rules is in general a good one. But this story is for sure not about that. No line is drawn and leaving allied projects like Iceweasel-UXP out of sight was for sure not okay right from the beginning, but now reached just a complete new level. You don't believe me? Well, looking here: http://thereisonlyxul.org/
Where are the projects from Hyperbola? Forgotten? But okay, understood now how browsers are made these days. More or less oriented onto foul standards, not being oriented towards safety and privacy, just illusions. And projects doing the opposite are left out. That would be okay in some way, but now even cutting the projects outside from development? As I've said: Questionable at minimum.

And before somebody is coming up: Yes, the MPL was originally violated. But what's next? Creating therefore questionable and legal issues on your own? Restricting others? In the linked forum-thread there is the tale about changed perspectives: Dear Palemoon-developers, it is not that easy. You have removed the repositories for now and created a graveyard. Want a link? Got it here: https://repo.palemoon.org/mcp-graveyard

I quote the description of this new behind:

Missed opportunities. Dashed hopes. Failed successes and successful failures. It all ends up here. Just like all the missing left socks in the world.

Not only using very questionable memes in the original thread to make bad jokes about others, now using questionable descriptions. As the world rotates only about you, dear developers? The Hyperbola-project was not part about you being hurt, but you do hurt now. Don't get it: Seems you walk for sure down a narrow path and instead looking at the good you punch around for everyone else. roll

And there was an answer:

If there is a need for detached platform codebases by compliant allied projects, then releases of that will be negotiable in the future when things have settled down a little. The platform code can be released as tarballs too for those who want to use the platform for their projects, not unlike CEF or what not is released. For right now, though, any such request will have to be on hold while we sort out the rest of our forced reorganisation.

Things to settle down in some part of the future? Thanks again. So everyone has to wait until you reorganize because you can and you do for sure. Internet is about the personal ego and we discuss for days and weeks about every personal point, instead to see the individual part within the collective, looking at the collective within the individual we talk about another drama-tale. Detached platform will be needed as you had no further interest before - the link about the removed UXP-projects from Hyperbola is just one proof.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

I think we need to swtich to an otter browser base, that looks to be the next most usable, parabola gnu/linux-libre has a version of otter browser, without webengine btw. wink

That being said, they do have web extensions addons as an option, but interestingly enough, they do not use rust at all in their code.
I think we should adopt otter browser, and allow webextensions but if needed have that option disabled by default.

Unless you can add a built in script blocker to otter browser. wink

Per site one, I mean... smile

But yeah, I know its not ideal, but I think that's the only option of palemoon/basilisk-browser dies.

As for a name if you want to make a special fork of it, idk...

Frostbeaver? tongue

I really dont know...

That being said, if you choose to do all of this, I would recommend disabling chromium extensions completely even if you don't disable firefox extensions as an option.

Anywho long story short, we may need to abandon iceweasel-uxp for the future... only thing is, I don't know what to do about an email client.

sad

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Well, the otter-browser is also part directly within Arch Linux. We can try to use that instead of midori. But things will stay even more complicated and for now the solution is not there: What about mail-clients? What we see is another project getting into problems because people make big kind of drama. Having license-issues is for sure not okay. But that being said: Free software is not about being used for personal power. It is about empowering and emancipation, but what the development-team behind Palemoon has done is the opposite of that. sad

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

4

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

This one is controversial regarding issues. Why not find other alternative web browsers with further details somewhere on few links we shared?

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

If you don't mind: I prefer reasonable arguments and nothing from the sphere about / from people seeing something "big evil" behind every corner and so I don't follow the reasoning of those links, especially the ones from the first one. There is no evil plan and yes: The internet is broken beyond repair and trying to repair that only throughout some browsing-toolset is not the way. Personal I'd choose to preserve the concurrent UXP-applications as long as even possible as I see the work behind. And when this ends on some point: Easy as that getting the cable out and better have a working system without applications broken by design. Regarding mail-client claws-mail could be some solution, but that's another point. The development-team behind Palemoon has proven for sure not reliable, but this does not make them in any way "evil" or the browser a fallen hero. Man what kind of symbols and descriptions are going around? hmm

We'd better stay out of those kind of "discussions", especially when people are around doing whatever they want and delete repositories and the whole history for whatever reasoning or they think to misuse their own power and the connected responsibility. This being said: The conclusion is not final for now and no webbrowser will solve the broken standards (in any way). At one point the story will be repeated and calling projects "evil" is nothing helpful. Better failed by design and decision so it is up to everyone personal. Everyone can make some listing and print some flags behind names for whatever reasoning. On the linked websites I don't have even the chance to understand how the flag "spyware" come to some name, based on what facts or on what further rules. Nothing to deal or help with: Hyperbola cannot integrate Firefox for the licensing and failures of Rust, so no Tor-Browser and also no IceCat. That's a simple but quite effective reason. UXP was and is the logic step, which is for now onto another question (see up ahead). Time will tell, but we don't need another list of new webbrowsing-projects to be "integrated". Whenever we start this, the version 0.4 won't happen anytime soon. Also easy as that as there are enough workplaces right now and decisions based on drama result in even more problems for sure. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

6 (edited by bemc 2021-09-19 05:35:41)

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Hello,
I am lost. Unfortunately, while I follow Hyperbola and I made some financial contribution, my day-by-day does not allow me to follow all the details of the developments. However, it looks like points around this discussion are important.
From the text above, I understand that something bad happened, that it is related to the licenses of the browser and that internet is getting misfunctional. These are conclusions, but I miss the facts, probably all of them in the links. Am I correct if I say: somebody found a violation of a license in part of the UXP code, and the UXP maintainer decided to make the whole repository non accessible. And since UXP is the base of mail/browser of Hyperbola, this is a very bad thing...
If that was correct, should we not expect that the UXP maintainer will clean/remove the code of interest to make it available again?

Thanks

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Hey bemc and welcome to this discussion. The full puzzle seems to be even more complicated, but as far possible from what is available: The original maintainers for UXP deleted the source-code-tree for now because of source-code being drawn back as part of the possibility within MPL. Gaming4JC asked if the source-tree for UXP will be released therefore, here to read: https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.ph … 88#p220188

A final answer was not given and instead we got only more puzzle-parts like this one:

Github hasn't disabled anything. Also, UXP is STILL on our forge under the mcp-graveyard. We are no longer going to use the Unified XUL Platform any longer. New branding will be forthcoming. For now it is just the "Platform Codebase" and is no longer public except for required Source Code Form of Covered Software relating to a Executable Form.

The problem is: When the original UXP-maintainer is no longer interested within UXP itself, the applications here based on that get big security-problems, but that should be better left for Gaming4JC with all respect for his work for the packages and the infrastructure behind. I've just taken the information available for now towards here for discussion and review, so the community is able to create a better and more complete picture. The behaviour from the development-team behind Palemoon is for sure more than questionable and in a whole the opposite of being respectful. Especially when the "Platform Codebase" (former UXP) is no longer public and resulting binaries for the applications even differ from the official releases when built or it is no longer possible to just use the framework itself for the applications from Hyperbola - a possible nightmare, just because people misuse their power at will.

In general to get one point again clear: For sure the behaviour of some of the developers behind Palemoon is beyond correct or questionable when it comes to accepting the user as full partner. They don't, but it is up to everyone to make own decisions onto that. Are they "evil"? No. Is there questionable and very hateful behaviour? For sure. But better to let people play in the dirt when they want as long as they don't hurt others by throwing around mud (cannot believe from time to time how people behave here in the global network, but well). I'd stay at the point that we should try to preserve all the UXP-work as long as even possible as Gaming4JC has done so much work onto that. Perhaps the community finds a way to fork UXP at one point? Or something different happens? Perhaps only the browsers are left out at one point, but that would be also very tragic. We will see about that.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

8

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

But searching also helps and so here is the concurrent last state of the Unified XUL Platform as backup from 2020 where it got deleted: https://udn.realityripple.com/

Perhaps that helps to build also more addons as people asked here in the forum and because of the deleted content the question could not be answered positive until today. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

9

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Thanks throgh!
anyhow, it looks like an immediate reaction does not help much. So wait and watch in the mean time...

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

throgh wrote:

But searching also helps and so here is the concurrent last state of the Unified XUL Platform as backup from 2020 where it got deleted: https://udn.realityripple.com/

Perhaps that helps to build also more addons as people asked here in the forum and because of the deleted content the question could not be answered positive until today. smile

Depends on if uxp can be salvaged by Luke or not...

We also need people to grab the most needed addons from their repository and work them to our will.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

11 (edited by ConstantMotion 2021-09-21 15:57:30)

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Maybe switching to Tor Browser?

Pros & cons:
+ Surfing anonymously by default
+ Free software—as in freedom?

- ?

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

We cannot use Firefox because it is using Rust and is coming therefore with a bunch of license-problems ahead also with more adjustments needed. UXP was and is used intentional before Palemoon or better the development-team behind now went down a questionable road with the framework itself. The "tor-browser" is using Firefox. Rust is NOT free and libre per definition and therefore Firefox also as every package based onto the programming-language.

More or less it is a comparable issue Palemoon has now making UXP not directly accessible: To do modifications and patches you need both, the source-code and the license to do them. Whenever one part is missing the project and software turns the other side of the road. The drama results within the MPL-license itself and the will of individuals making the worst out of it as you can read within the thread. That means: Contributor terminates the grant of using the contributed part of source and the whole construct is going right towards a big problem. The MPL is nevertheless compliant to be a free license, but it is also being used against others now. Mozilla has done that in the past, is doing it right now already and the developers of Palemoon doing the same now here. To underline: They draw back the project UXP itself. So the question is also: Do WE have the right now to release Iceweasel-UXP, Iceape-UXP and Icedove-UXP in the future? Well, time will tell therefore. But there are for real no further alternatives ahead now as the UXP-applications themselves showed how broken so-called internet-standards are. And please don't await here that we rebuilt all from scratch: Hyperbola is not a big distribution, where hundreds of people help. For sure looking promising, but we have no time to get deep into every application when we want to be ready for 0.4. Therefore my callout also for everyone being interested to help: No BSD-kernel is falling from the sky right now, no fixed webbrowser will occur from the air and so on. wink

All packages are for real free and libre, so also being able to be modified at any time. So if there are possibilities for otter-browser feel free to add and test them later on when the package is ready: Hyperbola is from the ground-up community-based. If you have time, review claws-mail or perhaps spamassassin and recognize us here in the forum. We are doing our best at a given time.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

13

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Thank you for bringing up that point, throgh.
If I knew about that before, I wouldn't have brought up Tor Browser for consideration, in the first place. >.>''

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

That's for sure okay to have as many proposals as possible. We need to sort them and perhaps there will be some more possibility to keep UXP for the future in some way. But as bemc brought also up: Time will tell us all. It is a really big problem what was done now onto the site of Palemoon and I don't want to bring up now fingerpointing how some people are more or less onto "free and libre" from the projects. Also here: That will be shown in the near future when dust settled down a little bit more. wink

But we are working to be strict onto free, libre and privacy.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

15

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

throgh wrote:

But we are working to be strict onto free, libre and privacy.

And that's why Hyperbola is not just 'yet another distro'—and why I'm on board with this project:
Looking for the most free-libre and secure OS, you gonna land here sooner or later.

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Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

ConstantMotion wrote:
throgh wrote:

But we are working to be strict onto free, libre and privacy.

And that's why Hyperbola is not just 'yet another distro'—and why I'm on board with this project:
Looking for the most free-libre and secure OS, you gonna land here sooner or later.

Indeed, I agree completely on this, the other distros just are too complacent and don't go nearly far enough for my taste.

They are in my opinion the status quo of free operating systems, which is meh...

Aka, it leaves room for people to use freedom restricting software via free licenses which sounds insane,  but redhat is a sneaky little viper.

sad

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

17

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

There is a good bit of news, regarding on uxp alternatives,  however, it will take some time for this alternative to be made available.

You know the web browser epiphany right?  I talked to Luke the iceweasel dev, and he looked to see if it could work in Hyperbola...

There are but, a few problems, libraries in Hyperbola were somewhat old, and a few dbus issues.  This is not a guarantee as of yet, but its possible, he may be able to rework it to not need dbus.  Keep your fingers crossed and hope to God that he will make it usable. 

Also, you can play videos with it and log into various websites, so this might be a golden opportunity smile

dbus is the main issue though, so wait and see... 

smile

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

18

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

Well, I have not so a good perspective about epiphany as I've tried it once to integrate for build some months ago. Perhaps I've chosen not the best way to do so, but that browser is for sure nothing in its concurrent state I'd trust anything further. smile Different points but also major issues especially with libsecret throughout some corners to come and that was not possible to go around. Just to look onto the TODO-list: https://git.hyperbola.info:50100/~team/ … ncluded.md

And to rework some package so much includes always a growing risk comparable to do an own fork completely and being left onto that. So before we cheer up: Luke will take his time and is onto more research as always. But as Gnome has its very own vision I stay critical, especially with the ones coming through more dependencies like libportal, one "little present" from the flatpak-region. Just to browse websites does not mean I want an own "system within a system to run another system". wink A statement for reduced complexity instead of even more in just one application and Gnome is for the absolute definition of that. The point: I don't see any usage of growing so-called "web-applications" as this word and phrase is a complete thing for the trash within. When a website is developed like a big application you should better execute on your system the definition of absolute complexity is reached up. That mostly defined "modern websites" demand that and use this approach is the point for me to cut them off completely. And yes: This means to have consequences for sure. But better that as in the end a strict and clear line for principles can't stand a chance - general speaking. smile

If Github wants to lock me out from their "interface" on the website? Okay, so be it. If Gitlab is doing that the same? Okay. If alternatives follow that line? Their problem, not mine. We should ask ourselves where this is going as free software includes more not only source-code being free to learn and modify. Gnome and KDE have decided for complexity and growing. They have also decided not to draw any line for clear positions. Others follow and when this goes on there will be a time the source-code could be downloaded but is behind a wall of other systems you MUST HAVE and USE before you can access anything or support, even ask some simple questions - not possible for today even for Github or the Gitlab-instance for the Gnome-project.

For sure not meant to criticize you, zapper. But I stay critical and see this whole development in this sphere with growing concerns as I will forever deny to modify my chosen software and behaviour just to fit into some toolset. I want to respect others, not to exclude them when they have also respect. But the modern "web" excludes as baseline even: No JavaScript? You are out. Critical towards external sources and CDN-sharing? You are out. You want to view something? Sorry, you need that kind of "application", used on this kind of system and only throughout our ways. Hey, we talk about a description-language for text-sites once and I'd be even okay with some multimedia-content but with low entrypoints. Having a full load of blown portals instead and they don't want me there when I don't follow their newest whatever, use their newest blinking framework and application or the corresponding system, but well the computer / device is then too old. big_smile

So besides the point of the UXP-problem itself and their actions around: Most of the "modern internet" is beyond repair and just for the trashcan as it enforces fully functional devices being thrown away, use vendor-lockins and also brings individuals for real bad behaviour towards each other.
So it is not only dbus being the one problem: There will be for sure one decision to come, following the point of those "modern internet" or give it up at one point. Otherwise I see coming discussions: Why not Rust? Why not NodeJS? Why not Java? But why otherwise support for some browser in the end? That's not the point anyone should want and is not the responsibility of Luke within research. It is the question we are all into at one point as the demand of the community has relations back towards the system and the people. Otherwise it would have been no problem to talk about facts like Linux is going down the wrong way, frameworks are bloated and more about that. But we all can see: It is a problem and people are literally attacked very harsh. So better I write down the concurrent points I see right here, maybe I'm wrong? Would be good. But for now more and more "modern web" exactly is following this course and line I have described before. It is not "evil", it is just ignorance, but results in the end in more problems.

If epiphany is one possible alternative besides giving up support for "modern browsing": I'd immediately choose giving up the support and stay with dillo, links2 and own-compiled UXP-forks for the rest of time until even that is no longer possible especially for the "web". It is the simple reasoning: Nobody except the project-members of Gnome and for sure epiphany itself can guarantee they stay true towards freedom, security and privacy. Sorry, but especially this is for me not enough as Gnome has proven not being oriented towards that in the past and present. The other example is midori: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(web_browser)

In 2019, the Midori project merged with the Astian Foundation, then has been revamped entirely, switching from WebKitGTK to using Electron. (...)

This ends then at my initial wording: A system within a system for a system. Just for having something drawn I have to use even more frameworks, middleware and libraries. Kind of a joke, do you "modern internet"? wink How long until to choose another alternative as project-owners decide to follow others within the line for pragmatic choices or do something comparable like UXP or Mozilla now? Just my personal view onto that as I don't think this is a good way in general speaking for free soft- and hardware. Making compromises is one thing, but this gets even more complicated in this area and it is exhausting for all to search forever again.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

19 (edited by zapper 2021-10-08 01:43:32)

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

I hear what you are saying, Throgh, but, and this is a big one, some users will want a decent web browser that will do stuff like uxp did. 

That being said, a fork would most definitely be the best option at this point.  Cherry picking code from to and fro is the way to fix the issues with epiphany and update it.

Also, those dependencies you mention,  I don't think they are nearly as bad as meson... tongue

If dbus can be removed as a dependency, I think the Hyperbola team should reconsider. 

That's the biggest issue I have with it currently.   IF that works, then fork away.

And if things get worse over time, oh well...

My point is, no decent alternative to firefox, palemoon, basilisk might end up doing real harm to Hyperbola. 

Also, if for some reason it starts to become unusable, at least Hyperbola can say it tried its darn best. 

Long story short, I cannot agree with you. I don't care about github or gitlab for the most part, but I do care about watching videos wherever I feel like. 

My point, wait and see what develops.  And if dbus is unmovable aka, cannot be removed... keep epiphany excluded, its that simple. smile

Also, by your argument, why include libreoffice?

That is hellishly more bloated.  400mb for that package alone vs a package that's like less than 15mb,

Small edit btw,  400 mb unpacked vs 12.5 unpacked as far as I can see. That's insane the difference...

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

20

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

You could possibly look into netsurf, @throgh. Very minimal, written all in C, independently developed browser engine, GPL2 licensed, doesn't try to meet all the modern web standards but still renders most un-bloated pages well. And has built-in ad blocking and seems relatively private and secure, since javascript largely does not work in it.

I've been talking to @zapper about netsurf the past few days as a possibility for Hyperbola. I'm a Hyperbola newbie, just trying it for the first time this week. @zapper's been trying to get me to try Hyperbola for quite a long while now, well over a year I think. I'm really enjoying your distro a great deal. I did not know it was so light and fast, it's very impressive. I thought Void was possibly the lightweight champ, but Hyperbola undercuts Void's memory usage by probably 20% or more.

21

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

zapper wrote:

I hear what you are saying, Throgh, but, and this is a big one, some users will want a decent web browser that will do stuff like uxp did. 

That being said, a fork would most definitely be the best option at this point.  Cherry picking code from to and fro is the way to fix the issues with epiphany and update it.

Also, those dependencies you mention,  I don't think they are nearly as bad as meson... tongue

If dbus can be removed as a dependency, I think the Hyperbola team should reconsider. 

That's the biggest issue I have with it currently.   IF that works, then fork away.

And if things get worse over time, oh well...

My point is, no decent alternative to firefox, palemoon, basilisk might end up doing real harm to Hyperbola. 

Also, if for some reason it starts to become unusable, at least Hyperbola can say it tried its darn best. 

Long story short, I cannot agree with you. I don't care about github or gitlab for the most part, but I do care about watching videos wherever I feel like. 

My point, wait and see what develops.  And if dbus is unmovable aka, cannot be removed... keep epiphany excluded, its that simple. smile

Also, by your argument, why include libreoffice?

That is hellishly more bloated.  400mb for that package alone vs a package that's like less than 15mb,

Small edit btw,  400 mb unpacked vs 12.5 unpacked as far as I can see. That's insane the difference...

To watch videos there is a video-player, not a browser. big_smile But I don't have any problem with disagreement. smile
That's absolutely okay because everyone is free to do on other levels and points. Including libreoffice is from the other perspective way more harmless: Bringing some more libraries now so we can also pack scribus easier and when the big one (libreoffice) is getting out of hand or possibility for inclusion: It can be removed very easy. On the other hand the mentioned browser is no guarantee it stays on that part of its dependencies and future versions needs more. Not even counting the size itself, not even counting the counting the number of dependencies first: Per definition a webbrowser is a toolset for rendering description-files and display content, main text and some graphics. The "web" is developing every day, with new so-called standards and new ways people see blinking things. But at a cost of performance and security itself. Github or Gitlab is in this perspective relevant, because many projects are hosted there: Not having any kind of access because you don't have an electron-based browser (a very rude example, but not impossible) result in serious damage for creating patches for example.

My points here: libreoffice is executed local and fixed version. Yes, absolutely bloated in size and dependencies for sure, but under some control. Any webbrowser itself? Well, depends in general, but a webbrowser has relevant points not only being in relation towards local execution. You don't have the corresponding version? The corresponding framework included? Well, you are out. And this won't hurt Hyperbola only, more or less the on-going search hurt everyone. For sure my point is very dark and sinister from the base on, excluding even newer browsers is just my personal handling I'd like to do at one point only for myself, because as I've said "modern internet" is beyond repair. As alternative I'd see something like fair-viewer for searching and viewing videos for example, not the webbrowser itself any longer when the corresponding website / (so-called) platform has left the "building" of reasonable demands long ago, yes YouTube: Talking about you especially, but not only. big_smile

You are correct that there is need for some alternative about web-browsing. But designing a complete new alternative is impossible for all the included parts and using the ones existing now becomes more and more of a problem for free culture, soft- and hardware.

andyprough wrote:

You could possibly look into netsurf, @throgh. Very minimal, written all in C, independently developed browser engine, GPL2 licensed, doesn't try to meet all the modern web standards but still renders most un-bloated pages well. And has built-in ad blocking and seems relatively private and secure, since javascript largely does not work in it.

I've been talking to @zapper about netsurf the past few days as a possibility for Hyperbola. I'm a Hyperbola newbie, just trying it for the first time this week. @zapper's been trying to get me to try Hyperbola for quite a long while now, well over a year I think. I'm really enjoying your distro a great deal. I did not know it was so light and fast, it's very impressive. I thought Void was possibly the lightweight champ, but Hyperbola undercuts Void's memory usage by probably 20% or more.

Hey, welcome to and in the forum. smile Thanks for netsurf: Was on the radar about some months ago, but has driven off for other packages then. Good to have that again remembered, so we are looking into that for sure. Thanks for the feedback on memory-usage. It is good to read that this works fine.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

22 (edited by zapper 2021-10-08 12:41:45)

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

andyprough wrote:

You could possibly look into netsurf, @throgh. Very minimal, written all in C, independently developed browser engine, GPL2 licensed, doesn't try to meet all the modern web standards but still renders most un-bloated pages well. And has built-in ad blocking and seems relatively private and secure, since javascript largely does not work in it.

I've been talking to @zapper about netsurf the past few days as a possibility for Hyperbola. I'm a Hyperbola newbie, just trying it for the first time this week. @zapper's been trying to get me to try Hyperbola for quite a long while now, well over a year I think. I'm really enjoying your distro a great deal. I did not know it was so light and fast, it's very impressive. I thought Void was possibly the lightweight champ, but Hyperbola undercuts Void's memory usage by probably 20% or more.

Just wait until runit actually becomes completely functional, then it will really be fast and low memory. smile

Also just so that I can respond to Throgh as well,  I still think, if dbus can be disabled in Epiphany, it should be included. Also, not all videos are played on invidious or youtube. tongue

But yeah, if that can't be done, then it is what it is.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

23

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

In the end: I have absolutely the same perspective as you, zapper. smile
But I'm also oriented onto ... when I can't make it work or only with other serious problems, I am more onto to protect what is there and leave the rest as it is completely beyond repair. Not only technical, also social. Does not mean everyone else here has not that goal. Only want to write this clearly down here so we can all preserve what is here and head towards better. Perhaps even to create others throughout Mediagoblin (without NodeJS) and Libretube - thanks to heckyel for both. Peertube is no help and well the rest? Not changing that soon, but for sure: Not giving up! big_smile

Besides: netsurf is coming with libreoffice in one of the next commits for being onto the build-server. Running here the first local tests!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

24

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

throgh wrote:

In the end: I have absolutely the same perspective as you, zapper. smile
But I'm also oriented onto ... when I can't make it work or only with other serious problems, I am more onto to protect what is there and leave the rest as it is completely beyond repair. Not only technical, also social. Does not mean everyone else here has not that goal. Only want to write this clearly down here so we can all preserve what is here and head towards better. Perhaps even to create others throughout Mediagoblin (without NodeJS) and Libretube - thanks to heckyel for both. Peertube is no help and well the rest? Not changing that soon, but for sure: Not giving up! big_smile

Besides: netsurf is coming with libreoffice in one of the next commits for being onto the build-server. Running here the first local tests!

I have two things of good news I just learned,

1:  https://github.com/RealityRipple/UXP

2:  otter browser can play videos, you just need gst-libav

Apparently, I thought it didnt matter... also, last time I checked, I couldn't download it a while back...

My point being, it no longer matters about epiphany and earlier, I tried midori which... is a crapfest  due to how easily ads enter it...

Now comes a bit of bad news, I think?

I don't really know why, but otter browser won't go on Hyperbola for me, I am not sure if this behavior happens for other people, but yeah,  its a pain in the ass for me anyways.  Something about expired certificates... Weird stuff like that.

But for some reason, youtube doesn't have this problem... which is very odd indeed.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

25

Re: UXP walking down a narrow path and restricting freedom?

midori is a candidate for being removed sooner or later (points above in one of the earlier postings). Perhaps it is a way to work more onto otter-browser? Will look into the point about gst-libav also when the others are finished right away.

Thanks for the UXP-link! big_smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!