1 Topic by throgh (edited by throgh 2019-11-12 08:57:41)

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Topic: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well, it seems some people just tend to disagree and play their own "campaign" against Hyperbola. Instead of the wording Live and let live! it is just again more of the same reading: Accusations for having Hyperbola taking a snapshot from Arch Linux and enforcing their software onto users. And I find this very disrespectful, a subjective view from my side:

  • Hyperbola took just one snapshot back in 2017 nothing more nothing less and other distributions do this also taking from Debian or Ubuntu. What message is this? Just some kind of paraphrasing strawman because comparing those distributions is a big fail about the different approaches.

  • Exactly where is the way to enforce anything? Hyperbola is using OpenRC for now and there are plans to integrate more INIT-systems in the upcoming version 0.4 - looking here for s6 and here for shepherd. And this discussion is absolutely nonsense, even those INIT-systems are not integrated with version 0.4. By the way: Does anybody enforce the usage of Hyperbola? No, but it is just ONE distribution besides Parabola and Dragora onto the FSF-endorsed distributions using another INIT-system - having gnewsense outside because of unknown state and further planning.

  • The team behind is doing a very good job with own visions and there is nothing wrong to remove identified packages or integrate alternatives like LibreSSL, Xenocara and sndio. Even this is one outstanding position when looking after most other distributions just using the known framework consisting of systemd, dbus and pulseaudio. So what's the problem about having an own vision? Remembering even here: This was just one, initial snapshot and since this point many things were changed.

  • Freedom and privacy are not just a playground and a little game where to decide what is fitting and what is not. Many projects tend more and more just into the direction of being generic "open-source" which is the opposite free software and when this is named attacks will emerge immediately. What kind of childish game is this? Having problems or criticism with Hyperbola? Name it here for discussion and feedback instead doing it from comments and postings under articles and forum-threads elsewhere. Gnome is integrating proprietary services for example. That's no theory it is reality! Or is it about giveaway of freedom regarding the pragmatic approach and pricing?

In the end those criticicism or better to call attacks are just not needed. I've got it so far: Some people just don't want to hear and read about alternatives, getting really personal instead of being most objective about it. And this cannot be the way about software-freedom, acting like there cannot be alternatives, reducing the works of others, of even whole communities. Where is the problem? Just follow Live and let live! instead those harsh attacks and simplifications. There are people here not willing to follow the major way of systemd and corporations behind the generic Linux-kernel. You don't want to hear about this? Fine, ignoring is okay but the reduction of outstanding work being done is just impolite. wink
Free culture is about acceptance and not some agenda regarding pragmatism: Mozilla has more than just one problem regarding privacy? Red Hat has another own vision about GNU/Linux? And we should not forget about Oracle or Microsoft doing the same. Yes, removing Java, removing Mono is needed because they are not independent and ignoring all those first named issues is a leftover for further questions. Just talking about free culture is therefore all around this: Being mostly objective, reading through information given and then talk about.

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Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

2 Reply by zapper (edited by zapper 2019-11-12 02:45:28)

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Yes, it is definitely true...

People are not reading the wiki or the todo list and don't understand the reasons given for why packages are being removed...

Also, straight forks just suck. Deblobbing and no other changes = crap.

But yeah, the changes made to Hyperbola are pretty awesome. I am tired of corporations and I don't want them to control everything to do with linux.  I knew home was bad of course, but I didn't realize they were pushing proprietary crap. Well, unless systemd is considered proprietary... its license isn't proprietary, though its purpose is the same sadly... in a more creative yet destructive way.

Redhat and corporations like it, need to be more respectful and keep their hands off of gnu/linux and such, at least when it comes to breaking backwards compatibility and making bloated software. If they want to make stuff, fine... but don't overengineer it so that you are corrupting a good idea with your filth...

All in all I agree with you.  Security and Freedom are only being followed by a select few distros... ;/

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3 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

zapper wrote:

Yes, it is definitely true...



People are not reading the wiki or the todo list and don't understand the reasons given for why packages are being removed...



Also, straight forks just suck. Deblobbing and no other changes = crap.



But yeah, the changes made to Hyperbola are pretty awesome. I am tired of corporations and I don't want them to control everything to do with linux.  I knew home was bad of course, but I didn't realize they were pushing proprietary crap. Well, unless systemd is considered proprietary... its license isn't proprietary, though its purpose is the same sadly... in a more creative yet destructive way.



Redhat and corporations like it, need to be more respectful and keep their hands off of gnu/linux and such, at least when it comes to breaking backwards compatibility and making bloated software. If they want to make stuff, fine... but don't overengineer it so that you are corrupting a good idea with your filth...



All in all I agree with you.  Security and Freedom are only being followed by a select few distros... ;/



The problem at all is the criticism brought up towards Hyperbola and the vision behind: Some people throw this into one general point being to radical. Others brought up that whole programming languages will be removed (nodejs, Java etc.). And then there is also the date of some packages. But the question is: Why just criticism without discussions here in the forums? No real feedback. And I don't want to compare the different distributions, but I find the whole behavior just unfriendly and impolite, I don't even understand it because Hyperbola has just a complete other vision and setup in comparison of other distributions and therefore no need for such attacking in general. hmm

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

4 Reply by throgh (edited by throgh 2020-03-16 00:18:43)

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Please stop speaking about "usage" of human beings, that's not helping and I deny to say that people are useless (we are not talking about "objects" and human beings should not and never be compared to that or even put into stereotypes or labels like "useful" or "useless" - that's very impolite in the end and misanthropic), but the problem stays: It is the ignorance in general instead of acceptance having colourful environments. This would be possible with GNU/Linux and with BSD-derivates. Building an own operating-system, optimized for the concurrent workflow as you wish. But it is also about the feelings coming up with havng the knowledge to build and modify the personalized operating system: Not being chosen, just to spread knowledge, spread the sources and of course give more insights into the system. Not talking about videos on proprietary platforms like YouTube. More talking about real help having older equipment refreshed, showing that there is no need for buying the newest hardware. There are so many aspects about this kind of discussion, starting with labeling of others and ending with very dark, sinister thoughts while people having big problems with freedom, privacy and many more these days.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

5 Reply by rinakra

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well I don't have a lot to say about this except one pattern I also noticed occaisionally within Trisquel users is people tend to make some criticisms, like a big one was that Trisquel was not up to date enough and that Ubuntu had more up to date versions of several packages, as an example, and then say a lot of very harsh things about the people making Trisquel often going so far as to say "this is why libre software will never work" or something along those lines.

And regardless of whether or not they had a legitimate criticism they just totally neglect to acknowledge the fact that someone is making the operating system presumably without pay, and with limited time and resources.

No matter what you can say about Trisquel, it is an extremely valuable thing for lots of people with privacy concerns who don't have experience with computers. Yeah there are problems with it and there are reasons I switched to Hyberbola but I always wanted to say to these critics "if you care so much about it, then you would be at least trying to be productive, because there isn't really an alternative to Trisquel right now and the people here are doing the best they can."

I think this is a similar attitude as to what y'all are mentioning here. I think it really just boils down to people getting worked up for some reason or another and reading something online and just venting without really thinking. They don't really want to change their ways even though they have the idea that they should try. They tend to feel attacked somehow by Trisquel or Hyperbola or whatever just like some people seem to feel attacked by the mere mention of Linux. Like you say you use Linux and then they go into an unsolicited rant about why they love their Macbook. Or maybe they really are just frustrated by something and they don't know how to fix it.

But I think as long as the operating system continues to stick to the principles it clearly lays out and as long as the developers do their best to make things functional and respond to concerns of the users to some basic level, this bad publicity won't do too much harm. I have read several comments on that It's Foss interview about Hyperbola where people were attacking Hyperbola's idea to move to BSD. I'm sure you're all aware.

But if Hyperbola switches to BSD and everything works like we want it to.... those people will look silly because they were just wrong.

6 Reply by rinakra

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Speaking of "useless" people, Throgh I really appreciate your sentiments. I am so happy to see people like you in the world.

However, I do feel useless. I watch in awe as you all work on Hyperbola and I feel like I can't do much to help due to my lack of experience in programming etc.

Do you think there are some jobs that could be done by someone like me, for instance, who has a lot of experience with Linux and who uses Hyperbola, but isn't goign to start fixing bugs or helping fork the BSD kernel or whatever?

Like is there something someone should be doing to combat these "unnessesary discussions"?

7 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Hello there, rinakra: Thanks for your feedback, but I have to first make something to correct. I don't work here at Hyperbola and I'm also part of the community as you and everyone else. The problem itself is mentioned as we as human beings often don't look behind the curtain. There is much to see at the git repository as André and Márcio work really hard giving more into HyperbolaBSD and HyperBK.

Personally I want to give also something back as I'm first a member here as you are. smile
So I do some experiments, some work for giving back, tipps and experiences with help and more. That brings me to the major point:

rinakra wrote:

Do you think there are some jobs that could be done by someone like me, for instance, who has a lot of experience with Linux and who uses Hyperbola, but isn't goign to start fixing bugs or helping fork the BSD kernel or whatever?

We can do many things. Bringing for example some packages here into Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre as you can also find a mirror of the repositories on LibreGit, where we as community can help. We can help with donations, making also something besides perhaps with Libreboot-devices? We can support the team and this also means we can support us here as peergroup, as community.

rinakra wrote:

Like is there something someone should be doing to combat these "unnessesary discussions"?

Which also means: We can spread the word that Hyperbola is done by people for people, not by some companies or interest-groups. It is really free software, open for everyone. There is so much to do and help the team, perhaps also doing some artwork for example? Some nice backgrouds and wallpapers for installation? I like it here from the start as this little community with this big project is really clear onto the principles and also creating own packages, not only making something known before more "kind of free". Be welcome, be part of it on any way you prefer!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

8 Reply by rinakra

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Actually artwork might be something I can do with my Wacom tablet! I will work on it.

9 Reply by zapper (edited by zapper 2021-05-02 10:53:43)

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Point taken, we are better off rising above the mountains of lost distros out there, by not criticizing everything they do wrong.
Once we try to correct, if they don't listen, just ignore I guess. Is probably best advice.

PS, my comment from 2019, was very ignorant, I apologize.

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10 Reply by zapper (edited by zapper 2021-05-02 10:52:08)

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

rinakra wrote:

Well I don't have a lot to say about this except one pattern I also noticed occaisionally within Trisquel users is people tend to make some criticisms, like a big one was that Trisquel was not up to date enough and that Ubuntu had more up to date versions of several packages, as an example, and then say a lot of very harsh things about the people making Trisquel often going so far as to say "this is why libre software will never work" or something along those lines.

And regardless of whether or not they had a legitimate criticism they just totally neglect to acknowledge the fact that someone is making the operating system presumably without pay, and with limited time and resources.

No matter what you can say about Trisquel, it is an extremely valuable thing for lots of people with privacy concerns who don't have experience with computers. Yeah there are problems with it and there are reasons I switched to Hyberbola but I always wanted to say to these critics "if you care so much about it, then you would be at least trying to be productive, because there isn't really an alternative to Trisquel right now and the people here are doing the best they can."

I think this is a similar attitude as to what y'all are mentioning here. I think it really just boils down to people getting worked up for some reason or another and reading something online and just venting without really thinking. They don't really want to change their ways even though they have the idea that they should try. They tend to feel attacked somehow by Trisquel or Hyperbola or whatever just like some people seem to feel attacked by the mere mention of Linux. Like you say you use Linux and then they go into an unsolicited rant about why they love their Macbook. Or maybe they really are just frustrated by something and they don't know how to fix it.

But I think as long as the operating system continues to stick to the principles it clearly lays out and as long as the developers do their best to make things functional and respond to concerns of the users to some basic level, this bad publicity won't do too much harm. I have read several comments on that It's Foss interview about Hyperbola where people were attacking Hyperbola's idea to move to BSD. I'm sure you're all aware.

But if Hyperbola switches to BSD and everything works like we want it to.... those people will look silly because they were just wrong.

I am hopeful that HyperbolaBSD will be so good that it will silence its critics just by its security and lack of breakages alone. smile

And also it being extremely lightweight in addition to its stability and privacy/security.

Freedom requires good privacy after all and privacy requires good security. wink

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11 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well, reviving this thread here as we have again strange accusations and false information spreading around about Hyperbola. So I think it is needed to clear up again:

  • Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre 0.4 is the next released version to come and it will not contain common Linux-frameworks like dbus, polkit, elogind, systemd, avahi or pulseaudio (list can be enhanced for sure).

  • Hyperbola as project is onto absolute clear and strict rules for freedom, privacy and security. We don't go for other packging-systems, for applications and libraries not respecting those even if they are licensed and released under any free, permissive licenses available.

  • As written here we are heading towards a free licensed and open BSD-kernel for the Hyperbola-project, which therefore will be also part of the main system. There will be no Linux-kernel then, it is a BSD-one. This will be then HyperbolaBSD!

  • Yes, getting into the guidelines for packaging is not as easy as imagined and we will enhance them with more details to come also. But please: This is done for a common base, not to have anyone being in anger not to go the own way. You can do that, but have respect that we want to reach a common ground for the code-quality itself also. Nobody has in mind to get you upset and change something only with this reasoning.

  • We won't provide support for semifree languages like Java, Mono, NodeJS or Rust. And yes: We have also our reasons for that. Read here about our reasoning for Rust especially!

  • Hyperbola is about technical emancipation, user-freedom, security and privacy. This is also a reflection towards the community: Maybe we are not right big, but the system is therefore to be modified by YOU for the usage.

If anyone has some kind of problem with the points above: Please don't install Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre!
There are literally enough other systems and distributions available. There is no need to spread false information, wrong comparisons or any further accusations. And please: It is not kind in any way to do that in other forums or places. Nobody here can do anything about that for sure, but it is neither correct nor in any way helpful. If you have questions: Come here and ask, so the community is able to get a clear point to talk about WITH you. If you think Hyperbola itself is nothing worth your time, not a problem. The invitation stands for a discussion, but the pleasant meant part here is also that you don't spread false information and accusations around the global network. Thank you! smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

12 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Giving more information about the wording "semifree" as this was not that clear enough and can be part of misinterpretation from me. Therefore better information:

Here you find the reasoning for NodeJS.
Here you find the reasoning for Java / OpenJDK.
Here you find the reasoning for Mono.

And Rust is to find here.

In general: It is about privacy, security and freedom-flaws. The wording semifree is based on:

- Freedom to choose libraries and modification (LibreSSL for example as our providing base for SSL-implementation)
- Freedom to choose NOT having problems with unfree parts later on (generic definition for sure)
- Freedom for the users

I hope that is more clear. If not: Invitation is always there. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

13 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Just to mention: I'm not the only person here. The community is here and just to look at other people.

Founders
Developers
Artists
Security-Team
Support-Staff
Members made Hyperbola but are inactive (Fellows for a big THANK YOU)

And to finish here: Could we please stop that now? Playing some kind of nonsense-game referring towards older issues we are about to close with 0.4 is not okay. If you have questions: Ask them. Rest is up to everyone as nobody here would start to argue about others that way. Thanks again as I'd like to lay down this thread. big_smile

Just to pick some impressions fitting into your personal image is for sure not okay as you don't act onto facts: We have a wiki to be extended, we have a forum and you can look all the time at our git-repositories for things to come. I can only invite everyone being interested to look and / or help. And I won't do any more shadow-arguments! Stay fair and nice: There is room for that and no need about some kind of hunt who is "better", more into "better packages" or anything else. Have a nice evening or day! See you here treated with respect from us, so we hope being treated the same.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

14 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Well, I think it is time to revive this thread a bit more: So first things first we read for sure also other forums around. But to the people outside in discussions: You don't think it would be better to ask questions direct here if you find something unclear? When you think to discuss ABOUT Hyperbola, it would be fine to give us here the chance for any kind of reaction? Furthermore having debates around, which only make more sense done here direct. Reasoning is for sure: You have questions about Hyperbola as project and system, you can always come here and ask. Discussions are welcome.

But I think one major point should be made clear: We have just a stance towards our system here. Others are not our business, so we are just friendly towards other projects also and don't tell something we cannot approve. But one major question around is the change from Hyperbola GNU/Linux libre towards HyperbolaBSD. Giving the answer can be done slight easy: The reasoning is the control about all parts of the system and giving a complete toolchain out in the end. From kernel, userland and furthermore software being ported: Sure a modular system, but also with the vision of one source. Going further parts of the GNU-project, the kernel itself and other parts are not going into a good direction from our point of view in regards of security and stability. The amount of work to free the Linux-kernel is going to grow more and more in the years to come and partwise there could be the risk for more like the questionable licensing of Rust and others in the future. You can read all also here: https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announc … d-roadmap/
We don't like enforced dependencies of bloated Linux-only frameworks: That's also the reasoning why we had done that amount of work with our version 0.4 and the releases after as the whole system was build from scratch without frameworks we identified not helpful for inclusion. It is all free and libre software and therefore with respecting the license everyone can modify and build a system on that. Especially that's the point: From our perspective we want preserve this way.

But in the end: If you have questions about that, you can always come here and discuss with us about points. Be welcome for sure! smile
Yes, you don't need to agree with our decision. But please: Don't waste the time with talking ABOUT us. It would be quite more helpful talking WITH us. Don't you think so? We won't enter other forums, talking about US alone as we see no need doing that. Other places are for other actions, other systems also. Ours has its own focus, same way as every distribution and system out. And we hope people have as much fun as we have discovering and building.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

15 Reply by zapper

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

If you mean the whole DirectFB2 implementation, iidea,  heard that g4jc was interested in it as well.

But if it helps, I can discuss such things with interested parties within Hyperbola...

That being said,  been realizing more and more, as fast as I think, I still act quicker than I should before my thoughts have enough wisdom and logic to see if said idea is good or not.

Anywho, I will try to fight that urge in the future.

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16 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

No I don't think about that package-proposal. smile There are discussions going around in other places directed to especially other systems and distributions and I wanted to invite the people here, when they have questions.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

17 Reply by zapper

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

throgh wrote:

No I don't think about that package-proposal. smile There are discussions going around in other places directed to especially other systems and distributions and I wanted to invite the people here, when they have questions.

Ah, okay, so like oher distros, other OS, etc?


Probably your right more often than not about this specific issue.


Especially, due to  "hostility issues" or "misinformation"

Btw, not saying just  people who dislike their ideas or ours...

Both, is what I mean and the same goes double for misinformation, purposeful or unintentional.

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18 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Oh I hope people follow the invitation here. It is no problem to discuss or give more information when needed. smile

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

19 Reply by dikasp2

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

rinakra wrote:

Do you think there are some jobs that could be done by someone like me, for instance, who has a lot of experience with Linux and who uses Hyperbola, but isn't goign to start fixing bugs or helping fork the BSD kernel or whatever?

Im pretty sure the easiest way to make developer happy is by using their software and give a feedback in polite manner and maybe also mention it to your friends to widespread their software. any advanced contribution might come later or not at all is optional.

zapper wrote:

Point taken, we are better off rising above the mountains of lost distros out there, by not criticizing everything they do wrong.
Once we try to correct, if they don't listen, just ignore I guess. Is probably best advice.

I think is best not waste energy dealing with long uneeded discussion and therefore focus on the other task that matter. the truth always prevail, those misleading information will only backlash themselves and make us stronger in the future. thats the way of zen :)

20 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

As I have read that elsewhere: Hyperbola is not recommending adding Parabola-repositories within the pacman / hyperman configuration. I don't know why people are getting to such ideas: This is in no way possible as Hyperbola and Parabola are even now complete different systems. If doing so, you would damage your system installed. Please be aware about such a risk. Sure: That is your choice. But with version 0.4.3 this is not going to work also as we do not provide zstd-support any longer.

Further: Adding guix is also not supported. Again your own choice in doing, but this is also going to damage your system when done the wrong way.

Last also: Yes, we provide libreoffice. Just try a search: https://www.hyperbola.info/packages/?so … ibreoffice

I was a bit shocked when going through people posting such about Hyperbola. Please just use the instruments and tools given and you can find all needed information. Please don't spread hearsay. Thanks!

And to underline: Hyperbola and Parabola have nothing in common besides using pacman. Everything else is complete different and Hyperbola is completely independent.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

21 Reply by zapper (edited by zapper 2023-07-31 02:27:41)

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Truthfully, not just the way of zen, whether people know it or not, there is a principle that might as well be the "persecution clause"

If you attack someone's ideology mercilessly without any interest in the truth or your own hypocrisy, then you will lose. This is also in other beliefs, including Christianity being one of them.

Not that people of my faith understand this, but meh... 

people are a mixed bag. Sometimes they do stuff without understanding the implications. I have been guilty of this, certainly. The biggest problem is those who think they never do even when they are pushed with correction. 

But point being, what you try to push down, will inevitably gain power due to others flocking to said cause.

This is a concept of reality.

smile

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

22 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

Foremost it would just help when people write something to use the provided information. When looking elsewhere in forums or news, there are really not good researched information standing. And those I have described before were the latest bad ones likewise. So people claim Hyperbola won't offer libreoffice and therefore possible users "can painstakingly build it to run with the right compile options". Or "Hyperbola recommends that you add Parabola's repo's to your package list downloader thing. pacman.conf". All in quotation marks are original quotes taken, so the best thing I can do is to correct. wink

It is senseless to be active therefore on those other places and the people won't come here, to debate about those wrong information they have provided. But I can try to motivate others not following those ways and to do more research, even though I'm not always successful even here. Nevertheless: Just to use what is provided and written and if not clear, asking. We have the IRC-channel, we have the forums, we have email or even personal chats when needed.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

23 Reply by zapper

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

True, it is probably better to avoid those discussions as much as possible. I was speaking more of, more rare situations, such as trying to get support for something working on a repo, such as a package say, tenacity could be an example, or other.

HyperbolaBSD: The Future of Secure Libre Lightweight Operating Systems!

24 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

And again to see how people use shortening arguments to blame Hyperbola. In the current case? It is a posting I have made some time ago, quoting the full one:

GNU/Linux-libre is exactly a good example how free, libre software should not work. Yes, I appreciate all the work done. But it would be better to fork the Linux-kernel and do an own project named GNU/Linux-libre as an example. A complete hard-fork. To debate with "GPL-licensing is enough" does not work for us. Otherwise I would not make that much work now and replace non-free data from packages like supertuxkart.

What is made of it? Nice trick to cut out only one part of that posting. To quote:

Hyperbola's developers may have a peculiar definition of "non-free data". In the first post of the page, one of them affirms that they "do not want to distribute corporate projects any longer". The corporation is Intel in the sentence. In reply, somebody explains that there is no way Hyperbola would run on anything after removing drivers including contributions from the hardware vendor, such as Intel, even with a BSD kernel. The discussion goes on. What the developer says makes no sense to me. He even writes that "GNU/Linux-libre is exactly a good example how free, libre software should not work" (the emphasis is his).

Did I say that we cut out drivers? No, I didn't. Did I say that we remove corporate projects? Exactly that and yes. We are doing that. But I stated also that I miss the real fork for Linux-kernel to adapt for a real GNU/Linux-libre kernel as project. Please remember that GNU/Linux-libre is big shellscript, after execution a tarball is released and a compilation is possible. So where is the final source-code to make the project independent working? Exactly that was what I have written. And that was my intial posting about that:

No you should not list that as we are going to remove this next also with the announced rework of further packages before 0.4.3.1.
If you look closer this is coming from Intel and we do not want to distribute corporate projects any longer.

Corporate project and I'm not talking about corporate code as that is really more complicated. So it is really not okay and fair to quote only parts to have Hyperbola looking that way. And I won't mention the sources of that as this really does not matter for us. But what matters: If there are questions, get in touch and contact. It is not understandable why only parts are quoted leaving the rest out and stating "this is not understandable". What is exactly not understandable when we demand independence for GNU-project?

And is it really strange to understand why we have modified neverball? The "octocat"-ball is non-free for sure. The "blinky"-logo is remembering the original game "Pacman". Perhaps this might have been our interpretation but better be sure. The ball is wanted back? Okay, do so but please on your own. And the "rift"-ball? Well, it is same as "octocat" as this is a corporate logo. And we doubt this is "free and libre licensed". Or do we need to wait for the FSF to state YES and only act therefore? This is all complete unlogic and leaves the point that Hyperbola is just left looking bad without any clear reasoning for criticism. So please: If there are questions, just ask. Or write us a mail. Or contact us on further other channels. Stating hearsay and false arguments is not helping!

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!

25 Reply by throgh

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Re: Unneeded discussions regarding Hyperbola

As it seems the criticism is not stopping and people think they can just blame Hyperbola for whatever or misuse clear facts and turn them around in whatever direction they want. In difference towards those people and places we here only now focus on the brought arguments and stay reasonable without calling anyone out. People call out this:

Hyperbola developers apparently have a hard time understanding the free software definition. [Name of user] has recently brought up several pieces of software (ImageMagick, some content in Neverball, here Rust) Hyperbola developers were considering nonfree. After checking, they all happened to be free.

The Hyperbola developers have no hard time understanding the free software definition. We just do it the way as it is meant from our perspective and we have no problem with others doing it different. But seems nevertheless that others have here for sure an issue how we do it. Seeing the difference? I hope so. Our reasonings:

Neverball
The project is including the logo of the "Octocat" from Github, which is clearly from a non-free software and project in usage. Is Github somewhat free licensed? No, it is not. The logo of "Occulus Rift" is the same. And "blinky" is a reference towards Pac-Man as game. But perhaps the people criticizing our modifications can get in touch with Namco?  Removal of that data is therefore what kind of issue? The project is marked as free and libre licensed, so we have the right to modify it the way we think it is working for us while keeping all other parts working and also nothing more than removal of content being optional. So where is exactly the point of hard understanding from our side?

ImageMagick
The decision is also taken up from Graphicsmagick, clear to read here. We follow the definition, because we think it is reasonable. So where is again the issue to be seen?

Rust
We have approved our points and discussed also with the FSF. Nevertheless the criticism don't stop. We have also stated clearly our points here. Perhaps people do not notice or reject to do: But to "rebrand" an end-user application like Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird is quite a different thing than to "rebrand" a whole programming-language with own API, source-files, documentation and possible logos included. But that's the same rejection of reality the FSF is doing for years now with the Linux-kernel and GNU/Linux-libre, thinking some shellscript is enough. That kind of rejection for reality is weird in any way.

So again: Where is the talk? Where are people getting in touch? In fact we have to read those commentary elsewhere. This is not only something "unkind", it is clearly not true that we have "a hard time of understanding". The opposite: It is a hard time from people elsewhere to accept that there is a different position taken from us as it seems. And instead to get in touch with someone here, or ask: They stay where they are and throw some kind of collection of look-a-like arguments.  Perhaps the people doing this should consider how trademarks are working and they have - with a best chance - a tolerated usage of that copyrighted material. But thanks for being outcalled on-going without anyone showing up here and getting in touch with us. Is this the productive discussion we can await? Sorry, but this is not working. We have no doubt that neverball for example is for sure free software, but in our definition it includes problematic data. So where is the issue of removing it? Exactly: There is none as the licensing grants the right to use, study and change, redistribute and copy and finally improve and modify. All that was done and it is also the right NOT to use some software-package. We accept that others see it different, we also accept that the FSF see it different - while we do not see it alike them. But:

This time, I will simply believe the Free Software Directory, which lists all three language implementations as free software:

    https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/PHP
    https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/OpenJDK
    https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Rust

That definition is just following without any criticism into whereever. Okay, that's also a free decision made. But sorry: We see do not go there and when this is a problem, the FSF should clearly acknowledge that the whole sphere of free, libre software is even in a more problematic situation. With all of this: Why should be then considered to remove package-managers for programming-languages for example? They are all "free software" following the definitions. And now what? Patching them out? With every new release and thinking to do something good working? Sorry, that's not working as this perspective lacks the amount of work needed to be done for every new release. And what if anything is missed and the package-management works nevertheless? Congratulations for distributing non-free software then? Free, libre software means also exactly free decision. We accepted and accept that, but seems other people have here for sure issues and just use definitions others are giving.

You don't have to accept our reasons given, dear people. But we just ask again kind but straight: Can you accept that we are here with a different perspective and also accept that we don't want Rust, OpenJDK / Java and PHP? So where is the point for stating that we "have a hard time understanding free software"? That is not true: It is dishonest and very destructive: The argumentation here is following a different way and is only calling out Hyperbola and its team-members behind to "not understand free software". That's a false framing as words mean power and that is for sure misusing that.

ADDITION: As far going the copyright of a work done is not common for every country and nation same. So Pac-Man was released in 1980, which is surely giving the copyright behind that another time to go. So YES: We have done our homework for this. And we have removed other packages out of the same reasoning. We just decided to keep neverball because the removal was easy enough keeping the software itself working. So we ask for the people bringing those arguments, first to do their homework and research a bit better. wink And we do not acknowledge the "non-functional data"-phrase from the FSF. Especially games need this data and stating that "non-functional data" can be licensed different is more than not working for us (source).

This will be the last statement from us in that matter. We have no interest in that unneeded discussion and noise-making!
We are always interested in constructive talks, but those are not to be described that way.

Human being in favor with clear principles and so also for freedom in soft- and hardware!

Certainly anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices: For a life of every being full with peace and kindness, including diversity and freedom. Capitalism is destroying our minds, the planet itself and the universe in the end!